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Lindsay I started to read one of your sources to "prove" that homosexuality is not a choice and the 1st thing I come across are statements such as: most scientists agree that sexual orientation is most likely the results of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive. . . .considerable recent evidence. . . This is not proof.
And BTW wikepedia is not exactly a credible journal or research source.
Wrong
Wrong
Wrong.
Most of the Founding Fathers were Diests or Freemasons.
This is not a Christian theocracy where your definition of freedom only respects your moral judgements.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
-Treaty of Tripoli, approved by President John Adams and Secretary of State Timothy Pickering 1796-1797.
No, you are wrong. Most Founding Fathers were Christians. And I didn't say our Gov't was based on the Christian religion, I said our country was founded on judeo/christian principles.
Lindsay, the bottom line here is you love your daughter. Wonderful, you have done a fine job as a mother with this. You are concerned about your daughter's life and how she may be subjected, and rightfully so.
I will never think homosexuality is non sinful. Just as I won't accept a long list of things in life as non sinful. I sin. I am a sinner. I don't hold myself in a higher regard than any person on this earth, I feel we are all equal in that we have all sinned at some point. I am no better than you, your daughter, or anyone who has posted in this thread or anyone else for that matter. I state this because it seems some people think that when Christian expresses they feel something is a sin, they mean it is bad and they don't do bad things like the bad people do and that they are glad they aren't one of the bad people. Quiet the opposite. I condemn many of my own actions when I reflect on things I've done. In no way do I feel superior to another person on this planet.
Keep in mind that if you don't ask people what they think about the subject, they often won't say a word. I've only been involved on these threads because there were people who said they'd like to see what a Christian with an opposing view would have to say. I realize now they did not mean that literally, they meant they would rather a Christian that disagrees keep their mouth shut and keep their opinions to themselves and that if one does post their thoughts, they are waiting to oppose them. Excuse me for misreading.
America has a tradition of defining "marriage" as a union between a man and a woman. Since gay unions are same-sex, it is, therefore, different in nature because of the genders of the members of the couple. Why, therefore, must the American traditional meaning of the word "marriage" be changed to include homosexual couples?
How would you have applied that argument when the issue was over the tradition of banning mixed-faith and mixed-race marriages? How in the case of the traditions of slavery or exclusively male suffrage? Somehow my guess is that you yourself don't see this argument as being consistently applicable...
Lindsay I started to read one of your sources to "prove" that homosexuality is not a choice and the 1st thing I come across are statements such as: most scientists agree that sexual orientation is most likely the results of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive. . . .considerable recent evidence. . . This is not proof.
And BTW wikepedia is not exactly a credible journal or research source.
Pardon me, but have you presented any evidence in support of your views? No you have not.
So it is pretty safe to assume that Lindsay's sources are more believable than your non existent evidence in this regard.
I can appreciate your honest and open discussion. But I still can't understand your reasoning.
As the numerous sources show, and as has been pointed out OVER and OVER again, sexual orientation is not a choice. Just like someone doesn't choose to be black, or Asian, or born with Down's Symdrome. Do you think people with Down's Syndrome are also sinners?
Many Founding Fathers were deists.
Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison to name a few.
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
-James Madison
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
-Thomas Jefferson
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.."
11th Article, Treaty of Tripoli 1796
Most of these people would be considered Unitarians today.
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst." -Thomas Paine
From Lindsay's source on ram brain structures......
"A high proportion of girls with a disorder that causes them to secrete male hormones before birth grow up to be lesbian. About 40 case studies have shown boys who are surgically altered and raised as girls because of genital deformities are overwhelmingly attracted to females once they reach puberty — indicating sexual orientation is determined very early in life and is difficult to alter."
Though they don't talk about it much, ranchers have long known that about 8 percent of rams never father offspring because they only have eyes for other males. Australian sheepherders call them "shy breeders," Roselli said
Those who argue homosexuality is a choice haven't been able to dispute that fundamental point, said Michigan State University neuroscientist Marc Breedlove.
"If you're going to say people choose a sexual orientation when they reach puberty, you're going to have to find some people who remember making that choice, and there aren't any," he said. "The evidence is starting to look pretty good that hormones early in life influence the probability of who you will be attracted to 10 years later, when people start to get their first crushes," he said.
Lindsay I started to read one of your sources to "prove" that homosexuality is not a choice and the 1st thing I come across are statements such as: most scientists agree that sexual orientation is most likely the results of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive. . . .considerable recent evidence. . . This is not proof.
The stern requirement of proof is certainly one which you rather selectively and arbitrarily impose. How big a most does it have to be before the conclusions of most scientists will impress you? 80%? 90%? 100%? Or are all those still too small?
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunky1
And BTW wikepedia is not exactly a credible journal or research source.
Neither is it a pack of lies. If you wish to refute a claim made there, that's fine. But you have to actually refute it. Just saying that it was included in wikipedia is hardly enough to accomplish the task. The messenger is not the message.
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