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There needs to be some age of consent. I've given my views on what it should be elsewhere, and I'm not interested in rehashing that argument. I'm less concerned about advocating or challenging a particular age of consent law, than I am with challenging the prevailing idea that anyone who trangresses the law is a fiend on the level of Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy.
Well I don't know what your opinion is, so I guess there's no debating this issue with you if you are "not interested in rehashing that argument".
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques
Without knowing whether the verb "assault" is being used in a literal or a moralistic, metaphorical sense in that statement, I can't evaluate it. You'll note, of course, that the law does not apply only in cases where there is any evidence at all the teen was "adversely affected".
He was raped, and I don't need you to evaluate what raped means, thanks. Forced anal penetration without consent. Clear?
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques
I wonder whether the teen in this case from my state was "adversely affected" by the application of the prized age of consent law:
Sorry, no sympathy from me. There is absolutely no excuse for a teacher to engage in a sexual relationship with a student, ever. There is absolutely no excuse for a priest to engage is a sexual relationship with a child/teen from the diocese, ever. Both know the law. If you are attracted to a teen, seek professional help, and leave teaching or the priesthood.
There is a very fine line between understanding sexual attraction between an adult and teen, or being an apologist for pedophiles.
[color=Indigo][font=Comic Sans MS]I may not be either gay nor male, but I have been fighting this battle on-line for over ten years now and I've seen almost all of the garbage posted by the one you're replying to several times. He seems to be one of those who will only believe what he wants to believe because to know and understand the actual truth of the matter would mean he might just have to rethink all of his positions and THAT would be just too painful for him.
You've been fighting this "battle" online for over ten years? Seen all the garbage already?
I believe you are fighting the wrong battle. As a self identified "straight female" it would seem to me that the proper side would be the side of the children, but your attachment to your views apparently prevents that ... so that claim of bias is a knife that cuts both ways, does it not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMcQ LV
So let me state right now that in over 10 years of discussing issues on-line with many gay men, I have yet to come across even ONE who is anything other than completely and utterly disgusted by even the thought of NAMBLA.
I would first highlight the obvious flaw in the logic here by suggesting ... go to Washington DC .... and feel free to have a personal conversation with every member of the house of representatives ... every senator ... and ask each one ... do you take bribes? What do you suppose their answer would be? Oh yes, I take bribes all of the time? I'd be willing to bet what you'd actually get is a universal "No, Absolutely Not" response from every last one of them.
But I digress ... more to the point ... you apparently have not included the victims of such molestation, or the perpetrators of such in all of your discussions over the years. Frankly, you seem to be ignoring the details documented right here coming from several posters that are peppered with quasi-acceptance ... quasi-excuses .. quasi-justifications for the behavior you claim is universally and unanimously condemned by every gay male you have spoken with in 10 years. Well, there are several posts here that challenge that claim, however indirectly stated.
Aside from the raw figures ... aside from the multitude of systemic, well publicized and documented child molestation cases within the Catholic Church, the Boy Scouts of America, and other youth organizations that seem to be a target of pedophiles ... and ignoring the plethora of homosexual based literature which for decades have repeatedly aggrandized sexual liaisons with youngsters ... along with overt support of such groups as NAMBLA by the largest of the many gay organizations (which apparently, according to all of the denials, do not reflect the views of their membership), you're right ... it's just a very large conspiracy to smear homosexuals.
Why? Because they told you so, and to heck with the facts.
He was raped, and I don't need you to evaluate what raped means, thanks. Forced anal penetration without consent. Clear?
Yes, that is rape. It would be rape if he were 14 and it would be rape if he were 64. Therefore, you could've and should've used the word "rape", probably "forcible rape" to describe it. Is that clear?
If I were the friend of which you speak, I would be primarily pissed off at anyone equating my experience to someone getting lucky with a teacher to whom they were attracted. Yet that is precisely what the law does, and also precisely what you defend it doing.
Quote:
There is a very fine line between understanding sexual attraction between an adult and teen, or being an apologist for pedophiles.
I don't really give a damn what lines you draw--who are you anyway? Do you have any academic or vocational credentials to speak on the subject with any authority? Or do you get your information, like so many others, from Oprah?
I consider pedophilia a mental disorder, like the rest of the population who is aware of modern science. I also note that there is no legally and socially sanctioned mistreatment of sufferers of other disorders like Alzheimer's or depression. However, aside from that:
1. If we are not speaking about prepubescent children, we are by definition not speaking of "pedophilia", and
2. As to the source I cited, it is one thing to have no sympathy for the dead "perpetrator"--which I do, and make no bones about--but I specifically solicited your sympathy for the girl who will have to live with his suicide on her conscience for the rest of her life, because of the "vengeance of the law". If you really experience no such sympathy, you are not enough of a human being to bother tilting swords with.
Yes, that is rape. It would be rape if he were 14 and it would be rape if he were 64. Therefore, you could've and should've used the word "rape", probably "forcible rape" to describe it. Is that clear?
If I were the friend of which you speak, I would be primarily pissed off at anyone equating my experience to someone getting lucky with a teacher to whom they were attracted. Yet that is precisely what the law does, and also precisely what you defend it doing.
And that is your opinion. By the way, he does not share your opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques
I don't really give a damn what lines you draw--who are you anyway? Do you have any academic or vocational credentials to speak on the subject with any authority? Or do you get your information, like so many others, from Oprah?
Can the insults, they are getting awfully tedious. I do happen to have credentials in the field. Do you? Irrelevant really, we are anonymous posters on a message board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques
.....However, aside from that:
1. If we are not speaking about prepubescent children, we are by definition not speaking of "pedophilia", and
2. As to the source I cited, it is one thing to have no sympathy for the dead "perpetrator"--which I do, and make no bones about--but I specifically solicited your sympathy for the girl who will have to live with his suicide on her conscience for the rest of her life, because of the "vengeance of the law". If you really experience no such sympathy, you are not enough of a human being to bother tilting swords with.
And that is precisely why the law is in place to prevent these relationships from occuring. They are complicated, and very seldom end well. The teen involved does not have the maturity to deal with the possible outcomes, and sadly someone usually gets hurt, or worse.
I do think sexual offences should each be judged individually. I agree with you that labelling an 18 year-old boy a sex offender for life for having consensual sex with a 16 year-old is not the same as a 65 year-old and a 5 year old, but the teen/older adult relationship is not in the same category either in my opinion.
All I needed to read was this to know that you know absolutely nothing about gay people. The rage I feel toward priests who molest children, if unleashed, would probably kill whole continents. I was molested by a relative so I think I understand a little more about this. And that relative is heterosexual. Still is, in fact. No one with a brain should ever say that the problem with pedophile priests is because they're gay...except a church that wants to demonize a population and redirect the (ignorant) public's rage elsewhere.
Let me clarify something here. First, I'm not suggesting that the majority of gay people don't feel the way you do, just as the majority of heterosexuals share a particular disgust for pedophiles. OK? I'll take your word for what you believe, as I have no evidence to call you a liar. With that said, if you want such trust, then you and others need to demonstrate that such trust is deserved. So far, all I hear are claims which tend to be rendered "empty" by the follow on comments ... including:
"No one with a brain should ever say that the problem with pedophile priests is because they're gay...except a church that wants to demonize a population and redirect the (ignorant) public's rage elsewhere.
This isn't just happening in the Catholic Church ... but it sure does seem to be systemic and totally out of control there. And I see no value to the Church for taking such a stance, given that they are on the hook for this behavior regardless of the "orientation" of the criminal priests involved or the protection of them by the Church hierarchy. How would this exonerate or lessen the impact to the Church? It would have no beneficial effect. They're still guilty nonetheless, so this argument is another diversion.
No, this is happening within a number of organizations not affiliated with the Catholic Church, who cater to youths. None the least of which also seems out of control with the Boy Scouts of America, who have very similar problems with not just perpetrators, but of covering up the crimes and protecting those perpetrators by higher ups, just as has happened in Rome.
Now lets look at the facts ... and lets compare apples to apples ... why do you suppose that the the Girl Scouts of America don't suffer the same degree of pedophile activity as the Boy Scouts? I'm not suggesting that such crime is non-existent, just not anywhere near the magnitude demonstrated in the Boy Scouts. Why? Because men are most often the perpetrators? And men are not as prevalent in the Girls Scouts as they are in the Boy Scouts? OK ... lets go with that .. and compare pedophile activity outside the institutional setting.
One of the prime areas of child molestation outside institutional settings is in the home ... where a relative or family friend is the perpetrator. These crimes clearly follow an orientation bias ... fathers or uncles or whatever that have equal access to both girls and boys follow gender orientation repeatedly ... fathers molesting daughters, perhaps several daughters, while not molesting sons, and vice versa. Contrary to the claims otherwise, it is extremely rare that such abuse includes both boys and girls whom the perpetrator has equal access. Why? Because there is sexual orientation involved in the vast majority of these crimes .. not every single case, but the vast majority. To deny this is futile ... and a total fraud. It's not supported by the evidence, and it's patently ridiculous from a critical analysis standpoint.
And this is the first BIG LIE within the debate that must gain acceptance in order to validate the second BIG LIE that there is not a disproportional occurrence of child molestation associated with homosexual males in comparison to heterosexual males. The claims that these crimes are not gender preference oriented is categorically absurd, and directly contradict both facts and common sense. But the disassociation of "orientation" is an absolute necessity if the goal is to absolve the homosexual community of any responsibility or negative image exposure relative to these crimes, which seems to be extremely OBVIOUS to anyone with a brain.
So, at the end of the day, my position is that for those engaged in such deception, regardless of motive, are at the very least providing tacit acceptance of this egregious crime against children for selfish reasons, and at the worst, are aiding and abetting these criminals because they share similar desires and seek similar protection.
This is self evident by the strenuous fight that has been ongoing between the homosexual community's legal actions to protect and defend the discrimination claimed against the Boy Scouts of America for their stance on prohibiting homosexuals from becoming scout leaders.
Once again, this is based on only one of two possible objectives ... protect the image and rights of homosexuals at the expense of the children who may be placed in jeopardy by their selfish actions, or, to facilitate access to little boys for their homosexual pedophile members.
Last edited by GuyNTexas; 04-19-2010 at 04:13 PM..
Let me clarify something here. First, I'm not suggesting that the majority of gay people don't feel the way you do, just as the majority of heterosexuals share a particular disgust for pedophiles. OK? I'll take your word for what you believe, as I have no evidence to call you a liar. With that said, if you want such trust, then you and others need to demonstrate that such trust is deserved. So far, all I hear are claims which tend to be rendered "empty" by the follow on comments ... including:
"No one with a brain should ever say that the problem with pedophile priests is because they're gay...except a church that wants to demonize a population and redirect the (ignorant) public's rage elsewhere.
This isn't just happening in the Catholic Church ... but it sure does seem to be systemic and totally out of control there. And I see no value to the Church for taking such a stance, given that they are on the hook for this behavior regardless of the "orientation" of the criminal priests involved or the protection of them by the Church hierarchy. How would this exonerate or lessen the impact to the Church? It would have no beneficial effect. They're still guilty nonetheless, so this argument is another diversion.
No, this is happening within a number of organizations not affiliated with the Catholic Church, who cater to youths. None the least of which also seems out of control with the Boy Scouts of America, who have very similar problems with not just perpetrators, but of covering up the crimes and protecting those perpetrators by higher ups, just as has happened in Rome.
Now lets look at the facts ... and lets compare apples to apples ... why do you suppose that the the Girl Scouts of America don't suffer the same degree of pedophile activity as the Boy Scouts? I'm not suggesting that such crime is non-existent, just not anywhere near the magnitude demonstrated in the Boy Scouts. Why? Because men are most often the perpetrators? And men are not as prevalent in the Girls Scouts as they are in the Boy Scouts? OK ... lets go with that .. and compare pedophile activity outside the institutional setting.
One of the prime areas of child molestation outside institutional settings is in the home ... where a relative or family friend is the perpetrator. These crimes clearly follow an orientation bias ... fathers or uncles or whatever that have equal access to both girls and boys follow gender orientation repeatedly ... fathers molesting daughters, perhaps several daughters, while not molesting sons, and vice versa. Contrary to the claims otherwise, it is extremely rare that such abuse includes both boys and girls whom the perpetrator has equal access. Why? Because there is sexual orientation involved in the vast majority of these crimes .. not every single case, but the vast majority. To deny this is futile ... and a total fraud. It's not supported by the evidence, and it's patently ridiculous from a critical analysis standpoint.
And this is the first BIG LIE within the debate that must gain acceptance in order to validate the second BIG LIE that there is not a disproportional occurrence of child molestation associated with homosexual males in comparison to heterosexual males. The claims that these crimes are not gender preference oriented is categorically absurd, and directly contradict both facts and common sense. But the disassociation of "orientation" is an absolute necessity if the goal is to absolve the homosexual community of any responsibility or negative image exposure relative to these crimes, which seems to be extremely OBVIOUS to anyone with a brain.
So, at the end of the day, my position is that for those engaged in such deception, regardless of motive, are at the very least providing tacit acceptance of this egregious crime against children for selfish reasons, and at the worst, are aiding and abetting these criminals because they share similar desires and seek similar protection.
This is self evident by the strenuous fight that has been ongoing between the homosexual community's legal actions to protect and defend the discrimination claimed against the Boy Scouts of America for their stance on prohibiting homosexuals from becoming scout leaders.
Once again, this is based on only one of two possible objectives ... protect the image and rights of homosexuals at the expense of the children who may be placed in jeopardy by their selfish actions, or, to facilitate access to little boys for their homosexual pedophile members.
Now if only you could come up with some actual evidence, studies and facts to support your opinions. From reputable sources like child welfare authoritites and organisations, experts in the field, scientists, studies on child abusers, health professionals, the victims and perpetrators themselves etc. (All of which do NOT support your opinions.)
All you have been doing is relying on the "say so" of ignorant, unqualified, hate and fear mongering, tabloid style, anti-gay activists who can so easily be shown to misrepresent, distort and lie about......well pretty much everything. Then you've been making claims that something must be true because it is "documented" in articles by these same people.
So...
On one side there are the vast majority of health professionals and organizations, scientists and other experts in the fields of human sexuality, child abuse surveys of victims and perpertarors themselves etc... and many legitimate studies published in reputable publications.
On the other side are opinion articles and tabloid style bigoted rantings from non-professional, non-qualified persons (often religious) whose claims are so easily discredited as distortions and outright lies - as has already been shown. No studies, no experts, no health organisations support your claims. Only claims that all those studies by the "experts' are by gay propagandists.
Now....who to believe? To quote you... It's "extremely OBVIOUS to anyone with a brain"
And just exactly WHO are you REALLY protecting? Certainly not the children. If you were at all concerned with the welfare of children you would be trying to find out the facts instead of brainlessly swallowing all this scapegoating rubbish by anti-gay groups. The facts are, the vast majority of child sexual abuse against both boys and girls is by pedophiles with no adult sexaul orientation, or by men with an adult heterosexual orientation. Do some gay men sexually abuse children? Of course. Personally, I wouldn't lose any sleep if they were hung drawn quartered then crucified. But the facts are, that children, whether they are boys or girls are FAR more at risk from men with an adult sexual orientation than men with an adult homosexual orientation.
Could it be that the Catholic church is looking to scapegoat an entire community for their lack of response to the pedophile problem for so many centuries?
The RCC is looking to scapegoat. Reprehensible.
Signed, an EX RCC member
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