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I agree. I doubt that I will be in contact with her again, since it was a great challenge that yielded nothing but disdain from her. I always allowed her to bring up the past, and the patterns that I saw based on her behavior were obvious to me, a layman. I think there is a thin line between playing "therapist" and sharing an insight and perspective. In her case, my perspective was rejected because it didn't agree with her view.
Nevertheless, last week, she appeared far more frustrated and angry than when we first parted ways back in February. Oh well, I'm through with it.
You are most insightful on these issues, hope to hear more of your thoughts on this issue, and people who deny and fabricate as a defense.
Are we talking about the target of the abuse denying it or the abuser denying it? If it's the person who was the target, I think pushing acknowledgement before the person's ready could make things worse.
If it's the abuser, it depends on what the purpose is. If it's legal prosectuion and there's enough evidence, they should be prosecuted. If it's for emotional closure, the target may just have to accept that the abuser isn't going to give them that. The target is under no obligation to forgive or maintain contact with the person who is abusive. Even if it is a parent or other family member.
I sort of think, that moving forward in life, is better than reliving the past...if someone is in "denial" about abuse...well, it must have been pretty bad. So, what is the point of going over the past? The real issue, is to deal with the present, and how your behavior impacts your life, because that is the "here and now"...going over the past won't change anything, and people need to learn how their actions affect their current life now. And go forward from there...There is nothing really wrong with denial, as a defense mechanism. I also wonder about the ethics of deep psychotherapy, and the have concerns about false memories.
I agree with your concerns. But I do think the past does influence the present and future. One of the things I've found out in therapy since a family estrangement was that I was the scapegoat in my family of origin. Because I was the scapegoat in my family of origin, I didn't have the proper boundaries in place to avoid replicating that role in middle school and a couple of workplaces. Now that I have a better understanding of why that happened, I can improve my present and future by cutting off any scapegoating as soon as it starts (bullies usually start small and test their way up to more abusive behavior).
The near constant criticism my mother had of me has led me to internalize that criticism and project it onto other people. For example, I was recently hit by a slow moving car. I wasn't injured. As I finished crossing the street, 2 drivers were honking. My thought was to automatically think they were honking at me for blocking the crosswalk and I felt some anger surfacing. But I caught myself in time as I realized that they were honking to get my attention to see if I needed assistance or for them to call the police or act as a witness. Being aware of how that past criticism can influence my current day perceptions and actions is important. If I'm not aware of it, then I'll get angry with someone because I falsely attributed thoughts or opinions to them which they don't even have.
Some people are drawn to unhealthy relationships because of abuse or other issues in their past. Since that is affecting their current behavior, I think an understanding of the past can be helpful
Not to mention, some people who are abused go on to abuse their own children or others. If denial causes someone to normalize abusive behavior, that's an example where denial needs to be addressed for the safety of the children or others
Are we talking about the target of the abuse denying it or the abuser denying it? If it's the person who was the target, I think pushing acknowledgement before the person's ready could make things worse.
If it's the abuser, it depends on what the purpose is. If it's legal prosectuion and there's enough evidence, they should be prosecuted. If it's for emotional closure, the target may just have to accept that the abuser isn't going to give them that. The target is under no obligation to forgive or maintain contact with the person who is abusive. Even if it is a parent or other family member.
I am talking about the victim/child, or adult.
Anna Freud wrote excellent articles on denial in the OP.
This is addressing the psychology of denial, not legal /criminal aspects.
I came across a woman who hadnt addressed an abusive parent for over 50 years, the denial was to the extent that she blamed therapists for not doing their own "healing work" this is an extreme defense mechanism on part of a person who was a victim. They cannot move forward in other relationships because they are emotionally invested/obsessed in defending an abusive parent.
Just wanted to start a discussion on anyone's experience with denial as a defense mechanism.
Has anyone been through this with family, or close relatives/friends?
Denial is an unconscious mechanism, people often employ it without ever even realizing.
Good topic. I think if you see others around you suffering from same abuse, you learn to accept it. If someone wants to help, you will go into denial becuase you have convinced yourself that its normal. For example, giving birth to a son is regarded very important in some cultures & women get abused & taunted for not fulfulling this duty. If someone from outside comes to their help, they would deny it because the abuse is now a part of culture. To overcome the denial, a person has to move away from that society & move to a different society where a majority frowns upon that behavior. Only then a person will see it as an abuse & stop denying the situation. The society plays a very important role in this.
Good topic. I think if you see others around you suffering from same abuse, you learn to accept it. If someone wants to help, you will go into denial becuase you have convinced yourself that its normal. For example, giving birth to a son is regarded very important in some cultures & women get abused & taunted for not fulfulling this duty. If someone from outside comes to their help, they would deny it because the abuse is now a part of culture. To overcome the denial, a person has to move away from that society & move to a different society where a majority frowns upon that behavior. Only then a person will see it as an abuse & stop denying the situation. The society plays a very important role in this.
many cultures employ shame and unconscious control mechanisms to control the female populations also, I agree. It is a very complex and interesting topic. If you have any examples I would like to read about this also.
In American society, much denial of childhood abuse still exists. People feel the need to put on a facade that their parents were infallible and even "Godlike". If a person has not processed conflicts in therapy, they may even be age 60, and afraid to address their parental abuse. (verbal/emotional, not just physical although I would like to hear about that also on this thread).
I came across a woman who hadnt addressed an abusive parent for over 50 years, the denial was to the extent that she blamed therapists for not doing their own "healing work" this is an extreme defense mechanism on part of a person who was a victim. They cannot move forward in other relationships because they are emotionally invested/obsessed in defending an abusive parent.
The social factors you and Asma describe are a big factor. Not only is the abusive parent likely to minimumize the abuse, so do family members & society. The woman honestly may not even recognize it as abuse.
My mother emotionally, verbally and occasionally physically abused me. And by physical abuse, I don't mean things like normal physical discipline for the time period I was living at home (1960s-1980s). One time I gave her some typical teenage attitude in an argument about going to the store. Now that would be something maybe a parent might slap the kid in the face for. But instead, the argument ended with me agreeing to go to the store as I was told to do. As I turned to go to the door to leave for the store, she ran up behind me and without any warning, punched me in the back so hard I staggered forward and nearly fell down. I feel it was abuse vs. physical discipline because:
1) there was no warning
2) the argument had already been resolved and I was doing what I told to do
My dad was the one who did most of the physical discipline. Although he would sometimes use a belt and my mother would sometimes use a hairbrush, my dad was pretty clear and calm. He would tell us what we were doing wrong and let us know he was going to count 'til 10 and if we didn't stop/apologize, he would hit us. After the first few times, we knew to stop if we didn't want to get hit. There were clear boundaries and a warning to change the behavior. My mother would just lash out in anger.
I know some people consider any form of physical discipline abuse. Some people are ok, with a slap with a hand on the arm or hand or butt, but not a belt.
She also tried to choke my brother once because she didn't like the way he was driving the car.
She completely denies she did any of this and accuses me of making it up. While my brother confirms it happened, he downplays it saying it was just typical family stuff. His wife, my sister-in-law, reinforced this view as well.
When we became adults and moved out, the physical abuse stopped. But she would still verbally and emotionally abuse me. When I tried to set reasonable boundaries, I got a lot of pressure from relatives, especially my brother & SIL. Even when I tell them what happened, both as a child and more recently as an adult, there's a weird mix of reactions. Some people understand and back off. Some people are dismissive and say "but she's your mother" meaning I should go back for more. And others are shocked by what happened, but still think I should go back for more because she's your mother. I'm selective about who I tell in face to face life because I don't want to deal with people's judgments of me for refusing to reconcile with her after she cut contact. She did try to re-initiate contact this past Christmas, I didn't respond. I already reconciled (another estrangement initiated by her) with her once in support of her sobriety when she stopped drinking and it was the biggest mistake of my life. It's the one thing I would do differently if I had to do it all over again.
I didn't really see myself as having been abused when I started therapy. It took over a year until I got to the point where I could acknowledge she was abusive.
I don't think it was so much my being in denial as it was being surrounded by people who kept trying to tell me my perception was wrong. I've detached from most of her enablers or apologists.
I didn't know much about emotional/verbal abuse until I started therapy. Also, I walked around on eggshells and did everything I could to appease her to try to stop the rages. For example, my mother liked the deocrative couch pillows on a diagnonal. It was my job to clean our home and that included, on a daily basis, vacuuming, clearing the coffee/end tables, couch & love seat of all items. Including items left behind there by her and my brother. I only had to put the ones for my brother in his room, but hers had to be put back in the proper place. Jewelry in her jewelry box, clothing either hung up or folded away or placed in the hamper. This sometimes included her bra. I also had to make her bed, vacuum her room and clear her dresser of anything left behind. She was a chain smoker at the time so daily duties included emptying and washing ashtrays, then putting them in their specific position. Dishes would have to be loaded into the dishwasher (she and my brother would sometimes leave glasses/plates in the kitchen or living room or her room). Pots and pans would be handwashed. Laundry was done several times a week. Sometimes I was expected to start/cook dinner. In addition, I had to watch my brother and get both of us started on homework. Night time babysitting tended to happen several times a week, sometimes nightly. There was more heavy duty cleaning on weekends of the bathroom and kitchen. These responsibilities all started when I was about around 12
One day, after I'd placed the couch pillows on the diagnonal as requested, my brother and his friend were playing on the couch and knocked them off of the diagnonal. I was doing my homework and didn't realize they'd been thrown out of alignment. She got home and went off on a screaming, raging tirade, inches from my face about it. Even explaining I'd put them on the proper diagnonal but my brother and his friend knocked them off the diagnonal didn't stop it. After that, I would check the couch pillow about 10 minutes before her usual arrival time. My brother thought it was funny and would knock them down on purpose to try and provoke her into a rage against me. Somedays, saying "hi, how was your day?" would result in a rage about how she couldn't get a moment's peace. Other days, failing to say would result in a rage about how no one even bothered to greet her after she worked so hard for us.
I thought since the physical abuse was occasional, I wasn't being abused. It wasn't until about 2 years ago that I realized the main reason I wasn't abused more physically was because I did everything I could to de-escalate it. I would even do extra household tasks to see if that would help. I learned, after being slapped, shoved, etc. that yelling back when she was in a rage would only escalate it. I would apologize and try to mollify her when she went off in rages.
After one therapy session, I realized that she was not to credit for the less frequent physical abuse, I was. My therapist would say things like "I think you were abused, but what do I know?" Or "that sounds abusive." Even now, I do tend to phrase things with reasons why it was challenging for her to be a better parent (her own crappy childhood, being a teen mom).
Child sexual abuse means damage for life. It's not because the abuse is no longer going on, that the person can live a happy, productive life. Once the "spirit' of a person is broken, there is no fix...such people struggle and struggle ...mostOf course not everyone experiences this to the same degree.
No, therapy heals the spirit. Please cite the study that says 'most never find a happy life and decent career and it's not for lack of trying... the feeling of worthlessness is too overwhelming and no amount of love and caring can take it away'. Some people seek help and some don't but it is no different than a heart disease. If you let it progress it will kill you, but if you treat it, it heals.
many cultures employ shame and unconscious control mechanisms to control the female populations also, I agree. It is a very complex and interesting topic. If you have any examples I would like to read about this also.
In American society, much denial of childhood abuse still exists. People feel the need to put on a facade that their parents were infallible and even "Godlike". If a person has not processed conflicts in therapy, they may even be age 60, and afraid to address their parental abuse. (verbal/emotional, not just physical although I would like to hear about that also on this thread).
Thank you for your posts so far.
I think this culture employs shame against the poor to keep them feeling beholden and in line at work and at home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by exscapegoat
The social factors you and Asma describe are a big factor. Not only is the abusive parent likely to minimumize the abuse, so do family members & society. The woman honestly may not even recognize it as abuse.
Exscapegoat,
good for you for keeping up with facing the past, its hard work but sounds like progress for you.
I was amazed this woman imagined her deceased parents as 'godlike authorities'. I assumed most got over that delusion once they got to age 20.
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, and people who deny and fabricate as a defense.
