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I guess I'm still just not "getting" how the outward body, the physical body, is so important to a person's concept of self. To me, the physical body is no more important than clothing: It might make life easier when others like how it looks, and we all have preferences on how we'd like our bodies/clothing to appear. But it's just an exterior shell. I "have a body" just like I "have a wardrobe." Neither defines who I am, or my happiness.
Sure, as a woman, I'm fine with my female body, but I can't really say I "like" or "love" having breasts, a female figure, or other girl-parts. I don't dislike it either. They just "are." You say you want to have a feminine figure, breasts, etc. But plenty of women have straight up & down figures, more like a guy, and small breasts, or even fat figures (fat men and fat women pretty much have the same shape). I try to envision having a male body, and a penis, and despite my joking about my strange aversion to body hair (I admit I'm an oddball there), I don't feel positively or negatively about that at all. It would just be, well, a body.
To me, a body is just a vehicle we "drive around in" that is there to transport and feed our brains.
I think maybe some people are much more focused on their physical bodies than others. That must be on a continuum too. I remember talking with a former co-worker who was in recovery from an eating disorder, and who was now counseling people with eating disorders. Much of her treatment was focused on getting her back into her body, and as a therapist, she would work on that with clients, getting them to say "I am this body" instead "I have this body." I remember having a friendly, yet thoughtful argument with her, because I disagreed. I would say I HAVE a body, not that I AM my body. I thought that too many people with eating disorders were perhaps too focused on their bodies as their identity, and not necessarily removed from their bodies like she said. But that mantra served some purpose and helped some people, so I can't totally discount it.
Sure I might not like it if I were fat, but I also don't think I could become fat in the first place. I'm just as likely to forget to eat as I am to over-eat something that I like. I could never be an obsessive work-out person either; I get my exercise by living my life. I'm healthy, but I'm sure there are things wrong in my body, and when I'm older, I'm likely to die of something that I never got checked out early enough. It's just not that important to me--unless I'm in agonizing pain, I'm not likely to get some symptom checked out. It just always amazes me on a day to day basis how obsessed people seem to be with their bodies--their imperfections, flaws, as well as their aches and pains, or even glorifying them (like the exercise Nazis or miracle-of-birth types). Apart from washing and putting clothes on, and eating & drinking, I could go a whole day not paying any attention to the fact that I have a body.
A body's fatness, thinness, femaleness, maleness, or anythingness should not define a person's identity.
I might be odd in this way, I guess. But maybe people who hate their bodies, for whatever reason, might do better to be at least a little like me and my odd attitude.
I think you can be a female as you feel you are, whether or not you have breasts or a feminine figure. Our femaleness and maleness is in our brains (and I would even say our souls) more than it's in our bodies.
You can't equate being transgender with being obese. Apples to oranges. If you're overweight, you can hit the gym or eat healthier. It would also be in your interest not to be obese, although I am also opposed to people feeling that they need to look like stick figures to be beautiful. In other words, it's not a cosmetic issue. Gender is one of the core things that define who we are. If your body doesn't match that, you're going to be miserable and there's no halfway house or compromise (at least not in my case). I am already quite openly feminine in many respects and I dress androgynously, but that isn't enough.
I don't know how much you know about the effects of HRT on MTF transwomen, but these effects would certainly help me feel more female even though not everyone will see me that way:
- Softening of skin
- Brest development
- Growth of fat around hips, thighs and buttocks
- Rounding off of facial features
- Mo more erections, eventual infertility
- Psychological changes
And just the thought of having more estrogen than testosterone pumping though my body would be a huge psychological plus, even though I wouldn't physically see it. My voice wouldn't change and I'd have to pay for laser treatment to never have to see facial hair ever again.
So it's not all about what other people think. If I cared that much about what other people think I would keep it buried and most likely sink further into depression. I respect that you cannot fathom an issue like this unless you're in my shoes. I don't understand why people do a lot of the things they do or say, but who am I to say whether they're right or wrong?
You may see the body as just a mode of transporting or soul around and in an ideal world, so would everyone else. A friend of mine once told me about now she would love to have the kind of life where we are just beings, judged only for our actions and where you only see someone's soul. I wish that were the case, but it's not. Our faces, our bodies, our gender and our sexuality are important.
You seem like you're very understanding and compassionate and that you don't judge people based on appearance, but you are looking at the problem through the eyes of a cisgender person (obviously), so no mater how hard you try or how hard I try to explain that there's no middle ground here, you're not going to be able to understand it, or the inner torture being mismatched creates and now it goes way above the cosmetic. I have tried to compromise and I have tried to bury it, but I'm just becoming more and more unhappy as time passes. Yes it sucks that I will have to go through such drastic, risky and costly measures but it's worth it to me and I'm starting to realize that the only thing holding me back is me.
LOLOLOL...You seemed to have missed the point and humorous tone of others' posts. It is a biological fact that males have, in general, more upper body muscle mass. Are you disputing this fact? If I woke up in a male body I would assume I'd have more upper body strength and would do things to feel that strength - like lift a car. And no, I am not a powerlifter.
Males don't magically lift cars with no training
But you said you were trolling, so never mind.....
[quote\No, I choose to wear very 'feminine' clothes. I embrace 'feminine' clothes and have absolutely no desire to wear 'masculine' clothes. If I were a male, I'd embrace 'masculine' clothes which is why I might transfer my handbag addiction to a tie addiction. My personal style happens to fit with societal norms on dressing and I'm ok with that. I like looking the part. When in Rome....
But if you want to cross-dress, I would have absolutely no problem with it. Wear what you want, but maybe refrain from judging others...[/quote]
You can't equate being transgender with being obese. Apples to oranges. If you're overweight, you can hit the gym or eat healthier. It would also be in your interest not to be obese, although I am also opposed to people feeling that they need to look like stick figures to be beautiful. In other words, it's not a cosmetic issue. Gender is one of the core things that define who we are. If your body doesn't match that, you're going to be miserable and there's no halfway house or compromise (at least not in my case). I am already quite openly feminine in many respects and I dress androgynously, but that isn't enough.
I never equated obesity to gender dysphoria. I used obesity as another example of a physical feature that can influence a person's identity, but should not DEFINE it. You feel that (physical) gender is a "core thing that defines who we are" but not everyone give it that much weight. My sense of "femaleness" in my head is much more essential to my identity than any feature of my body.
I don't know how much you know about the effects of HRT on MTF transwomen, but these effects would certainly help me feel more female even though not everyone will see me that way:
- Softening of skin (this is just cosmetic/surface)
- Brest development (just cosmetic)
- Growth of fat around hips, thighs and buttocks (just cosmetic)
- Rounding off of facial features (also just cosmetic)
- Mo more erections, (Women have their version of "erections," even post surgery women.) eventual infertility (Fertility/infertility don't mean much to me, but I recognize that I'm in the minority.)
- Psychological changes (Yes, female hormones can affect your thoughts and feelings and will probably strengthen your feminine sense of identity. I agree with this one being important.)
And just the thought of having more estrogen than testosterone pumping though my body would be a huge psychological plus, even though I wouldn't physically see it. My voice wouldn't change and I'd have to pay for laser treatment to never have to see facial hair ever again.
So it's not all about what other people think. If I cared that much about what other people think I would keep it buried and most likely sink further into depression. I respect that you cannot fathom an issue like this unless you're in my shoes. I don't understand why people do a lot of the things they do or say, but who am I to say whether they're right or wrong?
But it sounds like those things that I labeled "cosmetic" ARE about what other people think.
You may see the body as just a mode of transporting or soul around and in an ideal world, so would everyone else. A friend of mine once told me about now she would love to have the kind of life where we are just beings, judged only for our actions and where you only see someone's soul. I wish that were the case, but it's not. Our faces, our bodies, our gender and our sexuality are important.
Yes, I recognize that we all need to adhere to social expectations to some extent, and that extent determine how much social acceptance we experience. I'm as judgmental about how people present themselves as the next person. But people's needs for social acceptance run on a continuum--from very high to very low. Yours might just be very high.If there were a way to dial that down, not eliminate the need completely, but dial it back, you could find more happiness.
You seem like you're very understanding and compassionate and that you don't judge people based on appearance, but you are looking at the problem through the eyes of a cisgender person (obviously), so no mater how hard you try or how hard I try to explain that there's no middle ground here, you're not going to be able to understand it, or the inner torture being mismatched creates and now it goes way above the cosmetic. (But about half of your focus seems to be on the cosmetic, or at least that's how it comes off). I have tried to compromise and I have tried to bury it, but I'm just becoming more and more unhappy as time passes. Yes it sucks that I will have to go through such drastic, risky and costly measures but it's worth it to me and I'm starting to realize that the only thing holding me back is me.
I wish you well, whatever you decide. At least, I hope that my prodding you might have helped you prepare how you'll respond when people in your life prod you.
@ Tracy thank you for your feedback, but I wish I could find a way to convey to you that the kind of changes I wish to go through are way beyond cosmetic and pertain to one of the core parts of my identity as a human being. Having a wonky nose you want to change may suck, but it's not going to cause people to refer to you as sir or by a male name that you never wanted.
We are not just beings. Nobody can look into my soul and see that I'm female (I wish they could). So while you may consider it cosmetic, I don't. I just don't want to be a man nor do I want to be treated as one. I know that's not something you would be able to fathom.
Thank you all the same. I have a lot to think about.
So let's say you wake up tomorrow, but you suddenly discover your body is that of the opposite gender. What would you do and how would you react? Would you try to make the best of it, correct it with surgery, or would you even go so far as to commit suicide? Would you even be secretly happy about it?
This goes out to males and females alike. I'll post a poll so you can vote anonymously.
I've actually had dreams that I woke up from where I was a man. I keep having this reoccuring dream that I'm wearing stripped trousers and I'm standing at a urinal. I remember in this dream I'm fascinated at my long legs and I'm proud of my shiny, black, polished shoes.
My husband thinks it's a past life I lived as a man, but honestly I feel comfortable. It's not like I wake up in a cold panic, it's more like "ah, cool."
If I woke up as a man, I'd hope to be tall (I'm 5'0) and the first thing I'd do is RUN RUN RUN with the longest strides possible!
I don't think it's easier being either gender. Men struggle with repression of feelings, they suffer more post-divorce and on a lighter note, men's fashion is just plain dreadful. The male friendships I've had have been good, but there's always a shut down & change of subject when anything pertaining to emotions and feelings comes up.
You know, thats a good point. I suffered beyond belief when I got divorced. Its been a long 4+ years back to normal, whatever that is. As for the feelings part, I finally learned how to be expressive as a male. I did that because I knew I could never survive another divorce, and I wanted to be a better man. So not all men are bad at that, its just not natural for us. Most choose not to work at it and change, but I did. I disagree on the fashion comment.
You know, thats a good point. I suffered beyond belief when I got divorced. Its been a long 4+ years back to normal, whatever that is. As for the feelings part, I finally learned how to be expressive as a male. I did that because I knew I could never survive another divorce, and I wanted to be a better man. So not all men are bad at that, its just not natural for us. Most choose not to work at it and change, but I did. I disagree on the fashion comment.
Forgot about this thread.
I am glad that you were able to learn from what must have been a difficult time for you. I know not all men are repressed. American men though generally seem to have it tougher which most likely emanates from pressure early on in life.
We will have to disagree on fashion. You're not a girl
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