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I think there are times using the phrase “everyone lies” is just a major cop out and excuse when people don’t like being caught or want to excuse someone else for an egregious lie.
If someone fibbed about not being able to meet me for lunch I’m going to let that go, they didn’t want to hurt me or just have difficulty saying no . If someone tells everyone their child has cancer and collects sympathy and cash support then throwing the “everybody lies” when caught is a load of kaka.
Well see its not a cop out but more so a why get mad if you've been lied to about a similar situation you have once lied about. making the person seem horrible when you've done the same. (not you just speaking generally)
And by 'liars' I mean functional adult humans. Of course there are different degrees and types of honesty, so I don't trust *all* liars. Just some liars.
Do you only trust people who never lie? In other words... do you trust not one single functional adult?
No, the same way I dont trust all nice people. For me I can trust someone who told a lie before. Doesn't mean they lie all the time.
I don't think it's the lying that really bothers people, but what the lie is about.
If someone is constantly lying about stupid stuff, it's annoying. If someone is constantly lying to cover their butts when they do something wrong, it's annoying. When people lie about cheating, stealing, etc. It's hurtful. But if someone sugar coats something like, instead of telling you what mean things someone else said about you, they'll sugar coat it with; "I just don't think you two would get along" I don't think someone would be too upset about that.
I will say, sometimes brutal honesty can help put things into perspective. But it all depends....
This is true.
My step brother is extremely hyperbolic and a big storyteller. A 2lb fish becomes a 5 lb fish every time with him, but if you ask him about something that actually matters, he's a straight shooter.
My sister isn't one to just makes up stuff or exaggerate, but she's a freaking liar when it comes to stuff that matters. She's the type that will tell you that she's broke and ask if you can cover her drinks or dinner after she just got paid. She's the type that can sleep around on a guy while he's out of town, and lie right to his face about where and what she was doing when he was gone.
There is a big difference between these types IMO. One can get annoying or embarrass you if the $hlt starts to get too deep, but is essentially harmless. The other is someone you can't trust when it actually matters and someone you don't need in your life.
I don't think it's the lying that really bothers people, but what the lie is about.
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This is true.
My step brother is extremely hyperbolic and a big storyteller. A 2lb fish becomes a 5 lb fish every time with him, but if you ask him about something that actually matters, he's a straight shooter.
My sister isn't one to just makes up stuff or exaggerate, but she's a freaking liar when it comes to stuff that matters. She's the type that will tell you that she's broke and ask if you can cover her drinks or dinner after she just got paid. She's the type that can sleep around on a guy while he's out of town, and lie right to his face about where and what she was doing when he was gone.
There is a big difference between these types IMO. One can get annoying or embarrass you if the $hlt starts to get too deep, but is essentially harmless. The other is someone you can't trust when it actually matters and someone you don't need in your life.
I try to be gentle about "little white lies"; if it's been a long-standing problem in communication I try to draw them out so they feel safe discussing the issue and we can work it out together. though with some people, even saying something like "I don't recall not responding to your last e-mail, i'll check it " and "what date did you send it"? can 'trigger' a sudden decision to 'disappear'. then I realize I need to have a relationship with someone who can appreciate my efforts to go halfway and be willing to do their part as well after that, instead of taking off.
I think what angers most people are sloppy, amateurish liars. They almost drive me to violence. For God's sakes, if you're going to tell a lie be professional about it, let it leave no odor, be so good at it, no one will catch it for months, years or never. And it's an art forum anyone can develop.
When I tell a lie, I'm so good at it, 95% of the time no one will catch it.
No only if you're neurotypical. I can't lie successfully period so that's why I rarely have done it. I'm the type of person who will tell a SO if I have an interest in another guy if they ask me or if I feel they need to know and I have. The only time I have told a successful lie is with my mother about something and that was only because she has ADD and I think she secretly suspected I was lying to her but she didn't want to believe it. She would often ask me after all if I was sure.
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
If someone tells me that they never lie, or they are "bad at it" then I often wonder if that is just a cover for the instances when they do lie. A lot of people do quite a bit of virtue-signaling that they are just oh so honest. Right.
Or maybe they're neurodivergent? We tend to be really bad at lying. That's why we tend to be loners and/or socially inept.
I honestly wish I was good at lying because I know people lie all the time and that's why I'm not successful but I couldn't turn my authentic nature off even when I really want to. Even omission of truth is hard for me at times. I guess I've gotten better at filtering but I'm still too bad to get somewhere with it. A vocational coach kept trying to get me to omit things but my brain was so obsessed with every one of my answers being 100 percent truthful.
The only reason I've got by as much as I have is I'm a reserved introvert so that helps filter some stuff no one wants to know but if I feel strongly enough my deep feelings will come out.
This is why I hate the question how are you? I usually say okay I guess in attempt to please them. Most of the time though I try to change the subject or just say hi/hello when they ask but some of them will push. There was one lady that saw through me right away and she had never seen me before so she kept asking are you sure..I said no. Finally I told her you wouldn't understand. Thankfully she accepted that answer but it was hard when she kept asking me.
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Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
Or, maybe like Lodestar, posting above, they're people who value telling the truth and being credible and reliable. Maybe that's important in their value system, so they make a conscious effort to avoid being untruthful. I don't know why this seems inconceivable to some people.
I do but beyond that I have a guilty conscience so even when I know it's important in a situation to lie I fail miserably because I'm worried about getting caught or something. It's pretty ironic.
Well, in a sense, what is a secret but a lie of omission, meant to be kept from certain people or from everyone? But it's just as important when it comes to being "trustworthy" that you be capable of keeping a secret, as it is to not lie to someone you are relating to in some way.
It is apparently, for people who know me in person, very easy to confide in me. So I end up with a lot of secrets that I'm carrying around, because my friends needed to lighten their loads. So suppose my friend tells me something about her relationship with her partner, in confidence. And then her partner confronts me about it, and I get the sense he might know...perhaps I am even being tested? If it is sensitive information he may not be comfortable with me knowing about...I might just duck, dodge, evade or outright lie, feign utter ignorance, so as not to cause a conflict in their relationship.
As someone else said, being a functional adult (especially the more social you are) involves a million little nuanced behaviors that we just do. EDIT: Nickchick, you are right. Neurotypical people "just do." There are various spectrum conditions and other scenarios with people, that would certainly affect that, and I apologize for my lack of inclusivity and sensitivity to that.
But a lie creates a secret, and either one is burdensome. By that I don't mean it's hard to keep your story straight. I mean that the urge to share is strong. Keeping things absolutely to yourself is challenging. In order to properly carry a lie or a secret, the fewer people who know the truth, the more secure the information is. Odds of exposure increase dramatically with each person you confide the truth to, though. Relieving the burden creates risk.
So in the very rare cases that I have held a lie or a secret that I wanted kept, I had to rewrite reality in my mind, make sure there was no way anyone could know, and that means telling no one ever. Erasing the fact of whatever it was from my mind as much as possible. I think it would be understandable why this is something that a sensible person would not wish to do often.
So I would say that while I tell the feelings sparing and social-easing "white lies" about as much as I figure most people do, (I prefer tact and diplomacy)...the more significant ones, would be exceedingly rare for me.
What is funny about this is that I can tell some incredibly wild stories. But every one of them is true. I've just lived a rather strange life. The things people might think I could be lying about, I'm generally not, and the very few things I do keep secret, are buried in so much silence that no one has ever known or guessed.
So in the very rare cases that I have held a lie or a secret that I wanted kept, I had to rewrite reality in my mind, make sure there was no way anyone could know, and that means telling no one ever. Erasing the fact of whatever it was from my mind as much as possible. I think it would be understandable why this is something that a sensible person would not wish to do often.
There is one thing that I have kept secret from from most people successfully and I regret even telling most of the people I did because they didn't get it (which is partially why I wanted to keep secret). I'm trying not to tell too many people because I don't want too many people to know. I don't need the attention but at the same time this is difficult because I need more viewpoints on it as I'm having a hard time figuring it out by myself. I've asked my therapist but we haven't come to a good solution.
So what do you do if your secret is one you need advice on? Or is this something that I can never figure out because I do realize my neurodivergence helps me to overthink?
And yeah unfortunately I have noticed that neurotypical people just do. They generally don't spend as much time thinking about things as I do and I ask them how they do it but they don't really have an answer because as you said it just comes naturally to them.
Everyone lies whether big or small. So why do people get upset when they're lied to when they themselves have lied before about something, usually to protect themselves no necessarily to hurt the other person.
I find it interesting that the people I've known who are most upset about lying, will claim they "never lie" but they do. If I catch them at it, they try to pretend it never happened, or somehow it doesn't count as much as if they are lied TO by someone else. If someone tells me that they never lie, or they are "bad at it" then I often wonder if that is just a cover for the instances when they do lie. A lot of people do quite a bit of virtue-signaling that they are just oh so honest. Right.
They remind me of those that wear Christianity not just on their sleeve, but tattooed on their forehead. I have a lot of clients that are devout Christians and don't hide or deny it. But only the one that made a point to talk about it and had it in his email signature is in jail right now.
Which isn't to say that you shouldn't be mad about some lies. IE, if your spouse lies to go on a date with someone else, if they lie/hide significant financial mistakes.
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
And those who are most offended by any kind of lying, are often the ones who are not very socially savvy and cannot spot it when someone is lying, or are prone to believing what they want to hear so much that they don't do any critical thinking. I believe that empathy and the ability to detect falsehood can be closely linked. At least for me, I often can detect lies (though I may not know what the truth is, I can tell when a lie is being told) and yet I also have a sense of where the other person might be coming from, how they may be feeling, and I am compassionate that they felt the need to tell that lie for reasons that mattered to them.
YES! I agree 100%...My wife has a friend like that, nice girl but is offended if everyone isn't a complete open book about their lives...And is offended if she is lied to about something trivial that doesn't effect her. Like when an acquaintance lied about a date (with a stranger to her.) Look, she didn't want to say "I'm going on a date" because she didn't want to answer questions from people or have her sister tell it to her mom, etc...
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Originally Posted by Spuggy
I agree.
If someone feels they have to lie by commission or omission then they are the one’s lacking introspection and are unable to explore the need they have to lie. I see no reason why a person would complicate their life by lying.
Not at all. Plenty of people are very cognizant of why they are lying. It isn't a need, its a convenient choice.
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Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
Or, maybe like Lodestar, posting above, they're people who value telling the truth and being credible and reliable. Maybe that's important in their value system, so they make a conscious effort to avoid being untruthful. I don't know why this seems inconceivable to some people.
It still raises a red flag when someone has to expound about how they don't lie. There's a difference between teaching your kids "don't lie, because all you have is your reputation, credibility, etc..." and saying "I never lie, nope not ever." Let me put it this way: I generally accept most people at their word, unless it doesn't pass the smell or credulity test, in the same way that I accept that most people aren't thieves. But if you tell me "I'm not a thief I promise I've never stolen so much as a stick of gum!" I'm going to check for my wallet and watch and lock up the silver.
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Originally Posted by Nov3
To those who take delight in brutal honesty, let's take it at fact value. A true fact vs an opinion are not in the same parameters.
Ergo, there is an underlying twist of a fact to build the opinion into this so called 'brutal honesty'.
Most here learned to lie at a young age. Some of us actually bought into this brutal honesty lie for years.
If a person actually stuck with a true fact (not a perceptive opinion) ..we might have a foundation for integrity. I met a gent who spent his time being accurate in his verbal and behavior. If he didn't know the answer ..he said so! He didn't lie .period. He filtered the common man's sludge of information ...and could find the fact and make a valid remark. Yes some folks sort thru the data..and filter how to convey it in an accurate way. Spare me the 'just being honest'. Chances are it's riddled in a bias hurt filled manner deceived as ' good intent'. And that is a truth .
I enjoy the phrase :don't 'p' on my leg and tell me it's raining. I have a keen sense when being lied too..learned to listen though ...Its the attitude of hey! It's your lie tell it how ya want. It's entertaining at best and sadly looses any trust in them afterwards .
That's a function of kindness, tact, and empathy, which is different than honesty vs. dishonesty. You can tell someone "That outfit makes you look like a whale" or you can tell them "that outfit isn't the most flattering."
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