Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This sad story recently came out where a boy who graduated high school in 2005 (he'd be in his early 30's now) overdosed on drugs and passed away. He had a journal he had kept where he said he had been raped by a gym teacher. He has since been fired. I don't know either person whatsoever, I only read the stories.
My DH told my mom and I that he has friends from over the years who's kids had this teacher and they cannot imagine that he would ever do something like this and that it seems crazy. I have to admit that after seeing pictures of him online, seeing that he has a pretty wife and two kids it does seem hard to believe but certainly not impossible. Apparently some other kids came forward and said they guy could act creepy but mainly with the girls. However no one else has accused him rape. My mom basically got mad and said of course he must have done it and why would anyone say this and journal about it if it weren't true.
It made me think of that Brett Kavanaugh case where he was accused by a woman as a teen of rape. I believe he was never found guilty and man people thought the woman was crazy and lying.
There have been many cases as of late where people accuse someone of molestation years and years later. I also don't know why someone would say something that isn't true....but it happens. It sometimes feels like we just have to believe the accuser regardless.
Do you tend to believe the accusers of heinous crimes even when there is no proof?
Are we talking on a personal level or are we talking about a court of law? If I know the person in question, and that's a stable person not prone to lying, then yes. If I'm empaneled on a jury, there ultimately has to be proof.
I had a client who was a family law attorney. Just the number of stories she told me of outright lies told to get a leg up during a divorce is beyond belief. During a divorce, people will throw out all kinds of fantastical stuff in order to get leverage when it comes to child custody. Or, when there's a lot on the line.
Or, in the case of my nephew, he married a woman with deep emotional problems and addiction issues. Her most recent incident was when she got on a bender and decided to call my nephew's boss and talk about how he likes to hit her. Evidently, she pulled the same act with her first husband.
On the other hand, I get the entire cover-up thing. There's my wife's now-dead uncle who was arrested multiple times for soliciting prostitutes. He also had a bunch of affairs and was caught red-handed by my wife's aunt molesting his two daughters and flashed a couple of his nieces (Not my wife. My father-in-law is a scary kind of guy). But there was this weird code of silence in the family where they actually never did anything about it. One of my wife's cousin's called the police on him, but she was the terrible person for having done it. When we were visiting my wife's grandmother for a family event, this creep kind of remarked on how pretty my 12-year-old daughter was. I took that occasion to warn him what would happen if he ever even looked at my daughter again. I can be kind of scary, too.
In the case of Kavanaugh (Whom I would have preferred NOT get the nod for the Supreme Court), there were massive holes in the accusation by Ford. She couldn't remember where the incident took place or even the year it took place. More to the point, her supposed witness has zero recollection of the incident and claimed to have never met Kavanaugh.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't take such accusations deadly seriously. And, quite frankly, a huge number of rapes go unreported. Those victims should be encouraged to come forward and report these animals. And the crime should be thoroughly investigated.
But at the same time, there has to be some standard of proof. The bias to believe a victim based on no evidence at all can lead to some serious miscarriages of justice. Here are just a few of the many, many instances where peoples' lives were ruined based on false accusation.
Another thing though, is that I think that since the internet became the thing that it is, everybody acts like our opinions matter so freaking much, but do they really?
I often pause to consider my role in these situations.
If a friend tells me that they were raped, I believe them. Even if I don't have proof, my ROLE is to be there for my friend. My role is not judge, jury, or police, it is "supportive friend."
If a friend is accused, I will listen and be supportive, too. But I think in both situations, I'm going to be trying to listen to my internal BS detector for signals of questionable information. And that will inform how I proceed, or don't, beyond that.
What I believe only really matters if I've got some kind of first hand involvement with the individuals.
One thing I've seen time and again, in my social circles, is after a bad breakup, one or both parties will declare themselves innocent and wronged, abused, and so on...and sometimes I'll see a demand that if all of their friends do not join forces to shun and shame their ex, then they don't want them as friends anymore. Well...I hate to say it, but I don't like being asked to participate in conflicts not of my own making. My consent to be part of one's personal army of retribution was not asked for, and assuming that it's part of my friendship to them is a mistake. They are declaring that their antagonism toward their ex is more important than our connection, and if that is the case, I wish them well and let them go.
I cannot play the role of police, judge, jury, to other people's private relationships.
Of course, this is very different, than what the OP describes... In that case, we're talking about complete strangers, and one of the affected parties is no longer even among the living. So...I don't see where having a strong opinion about it from my position, ends up being anything other than virtue signaling, really.
This sad story recently came out where a boy who graduated high school in 2005 (he'd be in his early 30's now) overdosed on drugs and passed away. He had a journal he had kept where he said he had been raped by a gym teacher. He has since been fired. I don't know either person whatsoever, I only read the stories.
My DH told my mom and I that he has friends from over the years who's kids had this teacher and they cannot imagine that he would ever do something like this and that it seems crazy. I have to admit that after seeing pictures of him online, seeing that he has a pretty wife and two kids it does seem hard to believe but certainly not impossible. Apparently some other kids came forward and said they guy could act creepy but mainly with the girls. However no one else has accused him rape. My mom basically got mad and said of course he must have done it and why would anyone say this and journal about it if it weren't true.
It made me think of that Brett Kavanaugh case where he was accused by a woman as a teen of rape. I believe he was never found guilty and man people thought the woman was crazy and lying.
There have been many cases as of late where people accuse someone of molestation years and years later. I also don't know why someone would say something that isn't true....but it happens. It sometimes feels like we just have to believe the accuser regardless.
Do you tend to believe the accusers of heinous crimes even when there is no proof?
People said this about my father, he couldn't possibly have raped me as a child because he’s “ such a nice man†and I must be lying for attention. It took him being convicted and sentenced to prison and him admitting it that they finally accepted it. Did they ever apologize to me? No!
Here’s the thing, just because this mam didn’t abuse others isn’t proof that he didn’t abuse someone Just because he looks nice, has a pretty or happy family doesn’t mean he can’t be an abuser.
I always support that an accusation needs to be investigated, that the accuser is risking a very unpleasant backlash, and there is always a horrible backlash. It’s not easy to come forward, especially against someone you love like a parent, or someone you or the community respects ( which is why these abusers be it male or female can get away with it).
This is one of the hardest things... Because yes, in general, I do want to believe victims who come forward. I know that there is USUALLY no "proof" of sexual misconduct. Seriously, incidences where it happened but no proof is available, are, I'm sure, VASTLY more prolific than instances of false accusation. Rapists do not seek out places where witnesses or cameras can usually catch them in the act. You might, if you're lucky and if you've got the fortitude to endure a rape kit at a hospital (and can afford to go to a hospital and receive care in this country)...you might prove that sex happened. Maybe. But try proving that you did not consent. There is usually no rock solid way to take it past he said/she said.
So this whole "I just want there to be proof" crap, is just that. You might as well say, "I just want rapists to be able to get away with raping."
But damn though. It kinda messes with our concept of justice, don't it? Innocent until "proven" guilty? Well... ? Does that just mean, "make sure you cover your tracks well so that you can do crimes!"...? I don't know sometimes, it's tough. I DO want there to be some kind of burden of proof. I HAVE seen instances where delusional/paranoid mentally ill people journaled things or said things that were outlandishly false. It is not beyond my imagination at all, knowing a few people suffering from schizo-affective disorder, that a person might commit suicide and have a persecution belief that they write about. And that disorder (which is part schizophrenic symptoms and part mood symptoms like depression, anxiety, bipolar)...that one in particular, does not show up in childhood, but kind of pounces on a person during their teen or young adult years usually. So you can't think, "well they seemed normal through their childhood..." Some mental illness doesn't fully manifest until some point and them boom! It's there.
Now I don't place any value or importance whatsoever on his looks or his perfect family suburb life portrait or whether he has a wife or kids or any of it...none of that matters.
But I just...I don't think that any conclusion can be affirmatively drawn one way or another. But if it got out that a kid committed suicide and wrote that in a journal, I mean...how does that not destroy a person's career, even if it's not true, I mean, if all the kids in the school heard about it?
I feel horrible for victims who are not believed, and for whom there will never be enough proof to see justice served.
And I feel for those who are falsely accused, no matter the reason why.
But I do believe that the first thing is more common than the second.
I know a lady who I WAS friends with, and then for years, was not, and then through facebook, came back into my life. Just on Facebook. Not real life, anymore.
In between the first time I knew her, and this time, she got divorced from her husband, and seems...Not well. She has this whole elaborate thing where she's saying that her ex husband is doing all these mind tricks, and using his marines training and top security clearance surveillance experience to make her crazy. It's sad. Now she's telling us that she's apparently raped on a regular basis, but she can never remember when it happens. She just sees the evidence of it. And the police don't believe her, the Marines won't do anything about it, and on and on and on. She lives in Hawaii.
I recently unfriended her. I don't think she'll even notice. It's like watching a trainwreck, and we don't interact with each other, and its a lot of sadness (to me) and I can't do a darn thing about it...and I'm tired of train wrecks.
.......my ROLE is to be there for my friend. My role is not judge, jury, or police, it is "supportive friend."........
Role is important. When I worked rape crisis, decades ago, if the question came up of "do you believe me?", I could honestly say yes for I was not working as a LEO.
I know a lady who I WAS friends with, and then for years, was not, and then through facebook, came back into my life. Just on Facebook. Not real life, anymore.
In between the first time I knew her, and this time, she got divorced from her husband, and seems...Not well. She has this whole elaborate thing where she's saying that her ex husband is doing all these mind tricks, and using his marines training and top security clearance surveillance experience to make her crazy. It's sad. Now she's telling us that she's apparently raped on a regular basis, but she can never remember when it happens. She just sees the evidence of it. And the police don't believe her, the Marines won't do anything about it, and on and on and on. She lives in Hawaii.
I recently unfriended her. I don't think she'll even notice. It's like watching a trainwreck, and we don't interact with each other, and its a lot of sadness (to me) and I can't do a darn thing about it...and I'm tired of train wrecks.
I have a sister, who accused a number of people of a bunch of things. None of those things ever happened. She was (is? dunno, haven't seen or talked to her in years) just nuttier than a Snickers bar. She was seeing some kind of [alleged] shrink who was doing some kind of 'memory regression' therapy, and after each session she would have new memories of things that never happened.
A good friend of mine was accused of something, and he had a really crappy lawyer. The only alleged witness could not possible have seen what he claimed to have seen because he was disabled and could not possible have been in the location claimed. Somehow, his layer missed that little fact and he was convicted. He went to prison the lawyer checked into a psych hospital and abandoned the rest of her cases immediately after. I tried to convince him to let me open an investigation, to appeal and get the conviction thrown out, but he insisted that he didn't want to go through it again. He said he did the time and it was over, just forget it. (But, of course it's not over, he's marked for the rest of his life and will never get back all the rights the rest of us enjoy.)
In the course of my work I was profoundly aware of people who were accused of things they didn't do, by people intent on misusing the legal system for retribution.
I automatically want to say "What evidence is there that 'this thing' occurred?" Far too often lately, it seems that people are getting their lives ruined ('cancel culture') based on hearsay and unsupportable accusations of things that may or may not have occurred years or decades earlier.
I have a sister, who accused a number of people of a bunch of things. None of those things ever happened. She was (is? dunno, haven't seen or talked to her in years) just nuttier than a Snickers bar. She was seeing some kind of [alleged] shrink who was doing some kind of 'memory regression' therapy, and after each session she would have new memories of things that never happened.
A good friend of mine was accused of something, and he had a really crappy lawyer. The only alleged witness could not possible have seen what he claimed to have seen because he was disabled and could not possible have been in the location claimed. Somehow, his layer missed that little fact and he was convicted. He went to prison the lawyer checked into a psych hospital and abandoned the rest of her cases immediately after. I tried to convince him to let me open an investigation, to appeal and get the conviction thrown out, but he insisted that he didn't want to go through it again. He said he did the time and it was over, just forget it. (But, of course it's not over, he's marked for the rest of his life and will never get back all the rights the rest of us enjoy.)
In the course of my work I was profoundly aware of people who were accused of things they didn't do, by people intent on misusing the legal system for retribution.
I automatically want to say "What evidence is there that 'this thing' occurred?" Far too often lately, it seems that people are getting their lives ruined ('cancel culture') based on hearsay and unsupportable accusations of things that may or may not have occurred years or decades earlier.
Yeah, that is a part of cancel culture that I am completely against...digging through people's long ago pasts, trying to find stuff that they said or did, that was probably more accepted then, but isn't now... And then burning them down over it, no matter who they are today. Like if we want people to be better, we have to give people the grace and space to grow. To learn. We have all made mistakes. Some of us were just lucky enough that our mistakes weren't recorded for posterity.
No, there are valid bits to cancel culture...the holder of a contract exercising their right to terminate a business relationship, as stated in the document that everyone signed...the holder of intellectual property rights choosing to stop reproducing a product that they own and have every right to decide to discontinue...looking back at content in some of the older media and just being like "Wow." or when a dirtbag doubles down on their dirtbagginess and those that they offend stop giving them money...well, what did you think was gonna happen? But playing this "gotcha" game with stuff from ages ago...? Especially when it's more of a gaffe than a crime? That's gotta stop, I think.
But anyhow. Back around to the OP.
Let's look at this another way. So, what, this journal is found, and the family went public with it? Or kicked off an investigation that got out to the public? OK, if we're talking about a schoolteacher situation, now you tell me what else you do, as the school district, besides fire that guy? Even if he maybe isn't guilty, think of the effects of trying to exonerate him and keep him around? Dealing with how the parents and students would act? I don't see how you have a functional learning environment with that elephant in the room, I just don't.
Let's not forget the witch hunts of the 1980's which were started by the ramblings of a paranoid schizophrenic.
"The McMartin Preschool Abuse Trial, the longest and most expensive criminal trial in American history, should serve as a cautionary tale. When it was all over, the government had spent seven years and $15 million dollars investigating and prosecuting a case that led to no convictions. More seriously, the McMartin case left in its wake hundreds of emotionally damaged children, as well as ruined careers for members of the McMartin staff. "
This sad story recently came out where a boy who graduated high school in 2005 (he'd be in his early 30's now) overdosed on drugs and passed away. He had a journal he had kept where he said he had been raped by a gym teacher. He has since been fired. I don't know either person whatsoever, I only read the stories.
My DH told my mom and I that he has friends from over the years who's kids had this teacher and they cannot imagine that he would ever do something like this and that it seems crazy. I have to admit that after seeing pictures of him online, seeing that he has a pretty wife and two kids it does seem hard to believe but certainly not impossible. Apparently some other kids came forward and said they guy could act creepy but mainly with the girls. However no one else has accused him rape. My mom basically got mad and said of course he must have done it and why would anyone say this and journal about it if it weren't true.
It made me think of that Brett Kavanaugh case where he was accused by a woman as a teen of rape. I believe he was never found guilty and man people thought the woman was crazy and lying.
There have been many cases as of late where people accuse someone of molestation years and years later. I also don't know why someone would say something that isn't true....but it happens. It sometimes feels like we just have to believe the accuser regardless.
Do you tend to believe the accusers of heinous crimes even when there is no proof?
.
Self-medicating with drugs and/or alcohol is one typical response to trauma. That, potentially, is the proof. We don't know what other signs of trauma there may have been; emotional instability or sudden panic, PTSD-type symptoms. Did the guy's parents say anything about noticing behavioral changes in him during high school? maybe they chalked it up to teen angst?
I don't "tend to believe" anyone in particular. All accusations have to be investigated as much as is possible, but I would never disregard a claim of abuse simply because a lot of time has passed.
I would be skeptical in certain situations though, politics or revenge being two examples.
As far as "cancel culture" goes, there are consequences to actions. I feel no sympathy.
Today on the news was that a massive child porn ring was discovered on the dark web and several more are known they are working on taking down. This one taken down had 400,000 subscribers. There are a lot more sick people out there than we realize. I keep that in mind.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
