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I hear ya. Where we moved from on Long Island, the only black people you would see in our town tended to be workers and not residents (the City-Data numbers are 20,315 vs. 131, white and black resident totals). Having grown up in NYC it drove me nuts to have my kids being raised in such a naturally segregated environment. But where we live now (North Raleigh), both sons have been exposed to a much more meaningful cross-section of society and have friends from just about every race, religion and ethnicity living in our country.
And to be certain, Cary's only true color segregation is white collar versus blue collar. But the boundaries that exist where you are now don't exist down here.
This is why Dh didnt even want to consider Cary as we are not white collar. (and now that I am not working a real job, we are not even close!) but the little section of the neighborhood we live in now here in Clayton is mainly white collar and I dont like it. People are not very friendly and I feel I'm out of place. We came from Milwaukee, so we wanted a diverse area, but our little section of this neighborhood is just not what we were expecting, but I hear it is mainly made up of people who move from up north. maybe that is the problem-everyone trying to escape their people and now they are all together here! there are a lot of NY and Nj plates on the cars!
Hello fellow Cantab! I appreciate your input. The reason we are leaning towards the Cary-ish area is due to the positive things we have been reading about that area on this forum. I would definitely be open to other areas as well, and I think we will be doing a lot of exploring when we visit this summer (Chapel Hill was also an area of interest).
The important things we are looking for are: Nice home (we don't necessarily need a brand spanking new home in a cookie cutter subdivision, we are fine with an older updated one) with a decent size yard (would .25-.50 acre of land be unrealistic around there?), good schools (they don't have to be the "best" in greater Raleigh, but a proper education is important to us), generally safe (where people kicking in your door is not the norm), and somewhat of a little town center (doesn't have to be huge and bustling with bars and the such...grew up near Central Sq, been there done that)
We would consider any area of greater Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill that would fit the above criteria.
I think you can find those areas in any of the core cities of the Triangle. Part of this means being wary of the assumptions you will hear. For instance, you'll hear so many people wanting to avoid Durham for "the crime" or "the schools," yet on Sunday walking from Trinity Park back to our house, we passed literally a dozen neighbors with small children out playing in the good weather. Similarly, while there are low-performing (correlated with low-SES) schools in Durham, there are also plenty that offer very good educations to those who seek it out.
Another thread on this board is noting the challenges some perceive in the Chapel Hill-Carrboro system of a school having a mix of low-income immigrants and high-income, high-expectation residents in the same school. That is a debate you will see frequently. Folks in Cary/Apex are typically wanting to find that GreatSchools.org "perfect 10" school -- in exactly the same way, IMO, that Weston and Wellesley and the neighboring towns love town-based school systems and hate inclusionary zoning or mandates to build low income housing.
I would suggest spending some time down here, getting the character/feel of the area, and renting whenever you come rather than buying first.
Ex-Cantab here (my wife, too.) Some of what you're likely finding is just the steely private nature of New Englanders -- my wife is a NH native and is slow to warm to or open up to others -- but there's a meta-level aggressiveness and pushiness I never liked when living in Mass.
Honestly, if you want to avoid the annoyances of New England -- and I have a good sense what you mean -- looking at Cary or Apex would not be my first choice.
Durham and Raleigh aren't "cities" or "urban cores" in a Lowell/Lawrence/Worcester sense. They really blend urban neighborhoods and commercial districts with very suburban neighborhoods in some cases immediately surrounding them. Yet they have little of the crime or urban decay that you find in NE cities.
Certainly not everyone in Cary/Apex is like this -- but I find a lot of folks who go there looking for "the best" suburb, "the best" schools, "the largest" house they can buy, "the right" subdivision so they can tell their co-workers they live in XYZ subdivision. It's a lot of the same me/us-first mentality that soured me on the Boston area.
I find a lot more authenticity and neighborly behavior in our in-town neighborhood in Durham, and know folks who have gotten the same vibe in historic Raleigh neighborhoods. I would definitely suggest expanding your search beyond the places that are where striving/lifestyle-centered relocators seem to gravitate.
This is a good summation of the options in the Triangle.
There clearly is more to the place than the "nothing but suburbia" often reported here on City-Data. Don't believe those people because that isn't true. It's important to understand that until 40 or 50 years ago, the Triangle was just a collection of very small cities and country towns. Certainly there has been tremendous suburban growth since then and a melding of one city/town into the next but that doesn't negate the existence of the charm that each of the old cities had prior to the boom. Those areas still exist but are typically at a premium to the burbs (as one might expect).
The thing that's different about Raleigh and Durham in particular is that one can live a fairly laid back lifestyle without the city hassle that the OP is trying to avoid while still being very close to center of the cities themselves. What I mean is that one can live in a single family home from the early 20th century and still reasonably walk or bike to downtown. For some, this proximity and access is more important than the centers of the cities being as substantial as Boston, DC, Philadelphia, etc. That said, both city centers are growing very rapidly and continue to add housing, business and entertainment options that didn't exist a decade or so ago. There's really no end in sight for both downtowns as the rapid change continues.
As for the suburbs, there are certainly tons of options and price points and situations. There are more established suburbs from the 50s, 60s and 70s primarily with larger lots and mature surroundings. There are endless numbers of upscale developments with all the bells and whistles that people who seek that sort of life usually expect to find. There are starter home communities on some of the fringes of the metro where land is cheaper and lots are smaller. There are gated communities (usually because of exclusivity not safety issues). There are country clubs, etc. Price points for suburban living run the gamut from the 100s to the millions across the entire region and usually one can find so many options that it would make your head spin.
i think you can find those areas in any of the core cities of the triangle. Part of this means being wary of the assumptions you will hear. For instance, you'll hear so many people wanting to avoid durham for "the crime" or "the schools," yet on sunday walking from trinity park back to our house, we passed literally a dozen neighbors with small children out playing in the good weather. i guess you could say the same for cambridge/somerville area, but honestly, i've never had any issues there my whole life. It's all about perceptions i guess.which is why i want to visit before even considering making a decision.i think a bigger factor will be where i end up finding work. One thing i would rather not deal with anymore is really bad traffic! (rte 3 on the south shore is a nightmare!)
folks in cary/apex are typically wanting to find that greatschools.org "perfect 10" school -- in exactly the same way, imo, that weston and wellesley and the neighboring towns love town-based school systems and hate inclusionary zoning or mandates to build low income housing. even in perfect "10" schools, i'm sure they have their own set of issues. I wouldn't want my children to face the kind of pressure that kids in places like newton/wellesley and weston face in their schools. The wife and i both went to "average" schools and we do well for ourselves, especially my wife. And i'm sure there are some kids who went to "perfect 10" schools that are flipping burgers right now!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnc2mbfl
this is a good summation of the options in the triangle.
There clearly is more to the place than the "nothing but suburbia" often reported here on city-data. Don't believe those people because that isn't true. It's important to understand that until 40 or 50 years ago, the triangle was just a collection of very small cities and country towns. Certainly there has been tremendous suburban growth since then and a melding of one city/town into the next but that doesn't negate the existence of the charm that each of the old cities had prior to the boom. Those areas still exist but are typically at a premium to the burbs (as one might expect).
The thing that's different about raleigh and durham in particular is that one can live a fairly laid back lifestyle without the city hassle that the op is trying to avoid while still being very close to center of the cities themselves. What i mean is that one can live in a single family home from the early 20th century and still reasonably walk or bike to downtown. that is exactly what we are looking for. We don't necessarily need to be within walking distance to town center, but hopping in the car and being just a 15 minute drive away from all the "happenings" would be nice.
as for the suburbs, there are certainly tons of options and price points and situations. There are more established suburbs from the 50s, 60s and 70s primarily with larger lots and mature surroundings. There are endless numbers of upscale developments with all the bells and whistles that people who seek that sort of life usually expect to find. There are starter home communities on some of the fringes of the metro where land is cheaper and lots are smaller. There are gated communities (usually because of exclusivity not safety issues). There are country clubs, etc. Price points for suburban living run the gamut from the 100s to the millions across the entire region and usually one can find so many options that it would make your head spin. very accurate. It has been a bit overwhelming with all the possibilities and different housing options (the wife and i like to look on zillow after work sometimes, just for fun...to see what we could possibly own). We are hoping that after our trip down, we will be able to narrow it down, at least to a couple of areas.
The reason I want to move IS to live somewhere different than where I am now. I think what drew me to Cary was (from what I have gathered) the fact that it seems to be a diverse community. Whites, Blacks, Arabs, Asians, Hispanics, etc. The town we live in now up here (Hanover), is 98% Caucasian (I checked the population right here on city data, and as of 2010 with a population of almost 14K, there were only 106 black people living in my town. 106!!! And living here for 2 years, the wife and I have personally never even SEEN an African American person). I grew up in a diverse part of Mass, and want to raise my family in a diverse community. I'd be open to any part of Raleigh that had that kind of diversity I am looking for. And Thanks for the well wishes
Anywhere in the South will have an African-American population; NC's population is 22% Black.
Cary is actually probably one of the most "homogenous" areas around here, not by race so much as by "mindset" as others have alluded.
Durham is the most "gritty" place around with a real diversity of people from white-bread suburbanites, a longtime Black community and many black-owned businesses dating back decades, a very liberal college vibe, gay/lesbian areas, etc. One thing you are less likely to find in Durham is a heavy "Right-Wing" or super-religious area because it is the "Bluest" county in NC, though everywhere in NC you will find plenty of churches of every stripe, including liberal.
The one thing about Durham that could be a negative is that the public schools in Durham county (are you aware that school systems are at the county level, generally? So Wake, home of Raleigh, Cary etc has one school system of over 150,000 students). Chapel Hill/Carrboro has what is generally said to the "best" school district, mostly due to the high degree of professors' kids in the system, but it's also the most expensive place to live.
Like everyone else is saying, you need to spend time getting to know the area before deciding on a "permanent" place. It sounds like there are any number of areas that fit what you're looking for (I would not put Cary on that list) but only you and your family can decide which secondary amenities enhance the primary list the most for YOUR needs.
I have lived in Boston twice and the RTP in Raleigh, Durham and Chapel Hill. I spent about 20+ years in both, so I think I know the areas and people.
For Bostonians moving to NC, you will be fine. Weather is great, lots more outdoor activities that you can do year round. You can even wash your car outside in December. Taxes, insurance costs, electricity, and housing costs are cheaper and the cost of living is less expensive.
There are 3 major universities in the area if you are into college sports.
You have to see the area to make a decision on housing schools, etc. My kids are grown and I like the old Hope Valley area.
durham is the most "gritty" place around with a real diversity of people from white-bread suburbanites, a longtime black community and many black-owned businesses dating back decades, a very liberal college vibe, gay/lesbian areas, etc. One thing you are less likely to find in durham is a heavy "right-wing" or super-religious area because it is the "bluest" county in nc, though everywhere in nc you will find plenty of churches of every stripe, including liberal.
durham sounds a lot like cambridge, ma where i grew up. I honestly don't mind people that are right wingers, just in small doses though :d
the one thing about durham that could be a negative is that the public schools in durham county (are you aware that school systems are at the county level, generally? So wake, home of raleigh, cary etc has one school system of over 150,000 students). Chapel hill/carrboro has what is generally said to the "best" school district, mostly due to the high degree of professors' kids in the system, but it's also the most expensive place to live.
again, this will be the deciding factor. I am going to have to do more research on the public schools around raleigh. And what makes it even more confusing, is that you go by county, and not by town. Up here in ma, a town either has good schools, or not good schools. Its something i'll have to get accustomed to.
:d
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhm5
for bostonians moving to nc, you will be fine. Weather is great, lots more outdoor activities that you can do year round. You can even wash your car outside in december. Taxes, insurance costs, electricity, and housing costs are cheaper and the cost of living is less expensive.
this is all sounds amazing to me. I haven't washed my car all winter, since there is still filthy snow on the ground
I hear ya. Where we moved from on Long Island, the only black people you would see in our town tended to be workers and not residents (the City-Data numbers are 20,315 vs. 131, white and black resident totals). Having grown up in NYC it drove me nuts to have my kids being raised in such a naturally segregated environment. But where we live now (North Raleigh), both sons have been exposed to a much more meaningful cross-section of society and have friends from just about every race, religion and ethnicity living in our country.
And to be certain, Cary's only true color segregation is white collar versus blue collar. But the boundaries that exist where you are now don't exist down here.
Can't the same be said of North Raleigh or even IBL? After all, the acronym is "Can't Afford Raleigh Yet"!
Location: Sodo Sopa at The Villas above Kenny' s House.
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[quote=Sal_M;39135298]Can't the same be said of North Raleigh or even IBL? After all, the acronym is "Can't Afford Raleigh Yet"
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