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I know this is going to be a mouthful but PLEASE bear with me. I am just a frazzled bag of nerves and we really need advice on home inspections and what occurs during the process. Our realtor has been very supportive but there is really nothing she can do at this point.
My husband and I closed on our home located in Wisconsin last week. The property was built in 2005. It has a lower level rec room, full bath, storage area, and bedroom area.
We had planned to mount a plasma TV on the wall in one of the rooms and called out two electricians this weekend to get estimates for the work we wanted to be performed.
Prior to the sale, we had a home inspection performed and with the exception of an exposed romex wire which was found (and corrected by the seller at our request) the inspector did not list any other electrical issues. That is why we were shocked to learn the following from each electrician:
The following basement code Violation Repairs (Required before any other work can be performed)
Remove incorrect conduit sleeve NM cable to the sump pump closet (this repair was performed by the seller's licensed electrician)
Replace the bathroom outlet with a GFCI receptacle
Install (8) additional outlets in the main rec room area (there are none at this time)
Install (3) additional outlets in the lower level bedroom
Install a switch to control the light in the lower level bedroom
Install (2) 120 volt smoke detectors and interconnect to the existing system
Apply triple permit fees for the original work performed without permitting.
The total for ALL Of this work is approximately $3000 and as new homeowners we did not know we would have to invest this kind of money at the start of our ownership. We could see the basement had some cosmetic issues we were willing to take on ourselves but we had NO idea about these electrical issues. We have also learned that we will have to pay $1500-$2000 because the electricians will have to remove at least 14" of drywall from the floor up and it will have to be put back. The city inspector could even require the ceiling to be busted up because the seller installed two ceiling lights and they have to be inspected as well. In addition, we will be hit with triple permit fees because the seller did not get them when he did the work originally.
We hired a home inspector because we thought we would be able to learn if there were any electrical issues if they existed. Finding them then, would have allowed us to negotiate repairs with the seller since they are code violations.
So, my question is don't home inspectors observe these types of violations when conducting an inspection and is it unreasonable to expect that an inspector would see there were no outlets in a room when he/she walked into a sparsely furnished room?
One final question. The seller checked "NO" in the box on the property condition report which says:
"I am aware that removeling affecting the proeprty's structure of mechanical systems was done or that additions to the property were made during my period of ownership without the required permits". This is not true. I looked the property up online and the seller purchased it when it was built and has always owned it since selling it to us last week.
So, my question is don't home inspectors observe (that previous owners have made remodeling projects that may or may not have been inspected but might also hide some details) ... and is it unreasonable to expect that an inspector would see there were no outlets in a room when he/she walked into a sparsely furnished room?
One final question. The seller checked "NO" in the box on the property condition report which says:
"I am aware that removeling affecting the proeprty's structure of mechanical systems was done or that additions to the property were made during my period of ownership without the required permits".
Did *anyone* involved in the transaction suggest that the basement work **might have**
been done AFTER the 2005 new construction and that the permits/inspections be checked?
Do you have an attorney? There is a LOT of culpability to go around.
Good luck.
Did you check for permits? The appraisers around here always check for any open permits.
Home inspectors are not qualified to address the conditions you list. They probably did not even know some of those items were not code although they sure as heck should have caught the bathroom GFI and the fact that one of your rooms has no outlets. Why? Because they aren't licensed electricians!
Some years after we bought our house, (which also by the way passed the "inspection" with flying colors", we hired an electrician we had become acquainted with to do some minor work downstairs. He found two absolutely blatant and extremely dangerous situations. he didn't even stop and come find us first, he just fixed them and then told us! I will never again buy a house w/out having a licensed electrician inspect it. We were very lucky someone did not get electrocuted from the HOT 220 wire stubbed out about 6 ft up in the work room wall. Fortunately, we had just never had a reason to touch it. Unreal.
First, I would check for the permits for this work, and go from there along the lines of the other reply.
This is quite the scenario to 'investigate' further. Check the permit history for the property. Although it does suggest misrepresentation by the seller, the unfortunate part can be, in general, proving that (they) had actual knowledge and intentionally misrepresented and failed to disclose material facts. There are many questions to get to the bottom of, for example, and one thing to clarify so you know which path to take -
Was this rec room finished/completed after the original owner closed? - I ask b/c if it was done at time of original construction (ie part of original builder's floorplan etc, then they may have have some explaining to do, along with the municipal building dept/inspector who presumably signed off on the house to issue the CO. However, it could be that in 2005 everything was to the then code (and the previous owner genuinely not aware of any code violations). If all this was after 05 then turn towards the seller. As part of background information gathering have a chat with the building dept to double check when and where electricity and outlets are needed/required in a property's 'living' space.
The conduit sleeve presumably is going to be corrected by the seller's electrician who did the work (and did he pull any applicable permits?) ... imo, if he tries to charge, mention that you're inclined to go after his license.
Municipalities won't retroactive permits but they might 'legalize' any work done but they may want to inspect behind the wall (even to the length of ripping off drywall etc). Provisionally it does seem, as MrR says, that a lot of culpability is to go around.
We are talking about a basement right?
Typically basements to not need to comply with having electrical outlets in rooms or even bedrooms, because its a BASEMENT. In some states it's not even legally considered a bedroom. It's still a basement!
That said, you can't fault the seller for not having outlets in the rooms. There were no outlets when you agreed to buy the place. Nothing has changed.
As for the GFCI... should the bathroom have a gfci? Sure, but there are plenty of "legal" bathrooms constructed before gfci's were invented that are perfectly legal. A gfci is $5, I can wire one in 5 min.
The basement should have at least 1 smoke detector somewhere.
If all you want is a tv, just hire an electrician to install a tv outlet. $300 max.
Just going off the info you provided me, I don't see how it's the seller's fault. Without outlets, lights, etc, its not even considered a bedroom or recroom. Its still a basement.
Last edited by 399083453; 04-17-2013 at 07:50 AM..
The seller was present at the inspection. I asked him if he did "any" of the work in the basement. He said no "it was partially done when I purchased the property". This could NOT be true b/c the room with issues that he pointed to (bedroom) also has code violations that I am sure would have been discovered if that room was built back in 2005 ... The electric in that room would not have passed a new construction inspection at the time the property was built.
The seller just said the drywall job was not the best which we knew anyway. He never suggested anything further.
Did you check for permits? The appraisers around here always check for any open permits.
Home inspectors are not qualified to address the conditions you list. They probably did not even know some of those items were not code although they sure as heck should have caught the bathroom GFI and the fact that one of your rooms has no outlets. Why? Because they aren't licensed electricians!
Some years after we bought our house, (which also by the way passed the "inspection" with flying colors", we hired an electrician we had become acquainted with to do some minor work downstairs. He found two absolutely blatant and extremely dangerous situations. he didn't even stop and come find us first, he just fixed them and then told us! I will never again buy a house w/out having a licensed electrician inspect it. We were very lucky someone did not get electrocuted from the HOT 220 wire stubbed out about 6 ft up in the work room wall. Fortunately, we had just never had a reason to touch it. Unreal.
First, I would check for the permits for this work, and go from there along the lines of the other reply.
I did not check for permits. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter b/c the seller did not pull one. Thus, we are hit with a fee triple the normal amount.
You are right in that a home inspector is not a qualified electrician but I disagree that it is not the the home inspector's responsibility to at minimum list FOUR rooms with open and obvious electrical issues. He does NOT have to state it is a code violation on a report but I think it is reasonable for a buyer to expect he would list any issues as an area of concern if they can observed during a visual inspection. Otherwise, what is the point of getting an inspector. Even more so, the walk out basement is considered to have increased the value of the property. We paid for it in our purchase price ... now we are faced with major expenses to correct the lie the seller told (no structural or mechanical work was done w/o a permit) and we have to redo the drywall.
Last edited by Nancy_Avers; 04-17-2013 at 08:14 AM..
The basement is a 900 SF walkout. Three electricians have come to my house and said that a permit should have been pulled b/c of the repairs that were done. The seller said NO work had been done w/o a permit. You don't think this problem starts with the seller's dishonesty. Sorry, I disagree.
Home inspectors are not qualified to address the conditions you list.
Yeah they are. None of these need more than eyesight and a circuit tester.
Here's a bit more on what an inspector is capable of seeing
and more specifically should KNOW to be looking for
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy_Avers
1-Replace the bathroom outlet with a GFCI receptacle
2-Install (8) additional outlets in the main rec room area (there are none at this time)
3-Install (3) additional outlets in the lower level bedroom
4-Install a switch to control the light in the lower level bedroom
5-Install (2) 120 volt smoke detectors and interconnect to the existing system
1-Well before 2005 the code has required GFI R's in Bathrooms.
It is child's play to know if the circuit is protected. NO EXCUSE to not catch this on inspection.
2/3- Well before 2005 the code has required finished space to have an adequate number of receptacles.
(Wall receptacles every 12 feet. Receptacles on any wall space more than 24 inches wide.
Hallways more than 10 feet must have at least one receptacle.)
It is child's play to know if these exist. NO EXCUSE to not catch this on inspection.
4- No light switch? Really?
It is child's play to know if this exists. NO EXCUSE to not catch this on inspection.
5- Well before 2005 the code has required interconnected and hard wired smokes.
It is child's play to know if these exist. NO EXCUSE to not catch this on inspection.
6- No mention of a basement level bedroom egress window. Confirm
The seller was present at the inspection. I asked him if he did "any" of the work in the basement. He said no "it was partially done when I purchased the property".
The builder could have put up all the studs, walls, etc in the basement and the new buyer paid someone to sheetrock it, and nothing else. Thus no permit pulled.
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