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And at this point, I must respectfully disagree with Onihc, who seems to stress that he does not have a problem with the traditional system. I have a big problem with it. Because imo it is sexist, immoral and degrading to men.
Yes, it is sexist. I was pointing out how women like to say they like traditions and therefore a man should be paying for their expenses, opening their doors, etc. so I tell them that if they really like traditions, do they also like the tradition that keeps women in charge of house chores and not complain about it or ask for help but all of a sudden they find that sexist.
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Originally Posted by captaincatfish
real men pay on first dates, second dates, and however many others they damn well please...they ALSO know how to give subtle hints that maybe sometimes the woman should pay
So I guess you believe that real women take the beer to the man as he watches tv, cook for him, pick up his dishes and wash them, and so on and then give subtle hints that maybe he should pick up after eating?
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Men paying doesn't make them wusses, and women NOT always paying doesn't make them gold-diggers, users, ball-breakers, and lying manipulative beeyotches...bottom line, ipso-facto, end of story
If we're going that way then women taking care of all house chores doesn’t make them bad and doesn’t make men lazy, macho, etc.
Yes, it is sexist. I was pointing out how women like to say they like traditions and therefore a man should be paying for their expenses, opening their doors, etc. so I tell them that if they really like traditions, do they also like the tradition that keeps women in charge of house chores and not complain about it or ask for help but all of a sudden they find that sexist.
So I guess you believe that real women take the beer to the man as he watches tv, cook for him, pick up his dishes and wash them, and so on and then give subtle hints that maybe he should pick up after eating?
If we're going that way then women taking care of all house chores doesn’t make them bad and doesn’t make men lazy, macho, etc.
I don't know what type of women you've been surrounding yourself with, but the ones I deal with get along just fine with me...
Also no, I get so fed up with all this 'woman's work'/'man's work' fooferaw...a man, to me anyway, should be able to get up off his own lard a** and get his OWN beer, learn to cook for himself just in case, say, his mate is tired, or ill, or has a physical condition that prevents her from standing and cooking...and be able to do the dishes himself...
What law is there on the books now, that says women are supposed to do ALL the housework, raise children BY THEMSELVES (she didn't conceive the child by herself, now did she?), and etc.?
When I turned 13, my late mother taught me a RAFT of stuff that was supposed to be 'woman's work'...I learned to wash dishes, cook simple meals, sew up my own ripped clothes and socks, clean a house or apartment from top to bottom, the list goes on...she did this because she learned form HER father (my grandfather) that there was no such thing as 'woman's work', and that any self-respecting man needed to learn to do stuff like that, because sometimes my grandma got tired, and he felt she shouldn't have to---well, you see where I'm going with this...
And years later, I can do 2 weeks worth of laundry, clean the house singlehandedly, clean up after dinner (LOL---she cooks, I clean, and it works for us) and give her a break...why? Because I love my wife, and she has MS (multiple sclerosis) and tires sometimes fairly easily...I'll be damned if I'm gonna play 'macho macho man' and sit on my a** and NOT do anything because of some bulls**t 'traditional gender roles'...not gonna happen...
Y'see, I'm MARRIED to one of those 'real women', who appreciates the fact that her 'real man' ain't scared to get his hands dirty, and who appreciates ME because I get up and get my OWN iced tea, coke ,or whatever...I can do all the things I said, and at the end of the day, I am STILL 110% man...
Absolutely not. Whoever asks the other out pays. Of course, there are exceptions, especially if the couple has been together for a while, or if the invitee insists on paying anyway. Circumstances vary, but generally, I think it's quite unfair if the man is expected to always pay.
I don't know what type of women you've been surrounding yourself with, but the ones I deal with get along just fine with me...
I am not saying they don’t. The women I go out with and I get along just fine as well. To each, their own.
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Also no, I get so fed up with all this 'woman's work'/'man's work' fooferaw...a man, to me anyway, should be able to get up off his own lard a** and get his OWN beer, learn to cook for himself just in case, say, his mate is tired, or ill, or has a physical condition that prevents her from standing and cooking...and be able to do the dishes himself...
And I totally agree with you. As much as I believe a man can wash dishes, cook, mop the kitchen floor, etc. I also believe a woman is totally capable of paying for her own dinner and her guy’s just like a man does for a woman. A nice balance between both men/women.
It seems you don’t like house chores to be labeled as a “woman’s job”, right? But you do support the idea that men paying for women’s expenses, her drinks, her meals, her entertainment, etc. is a “man’s job”, am I correct?
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What law is there on the books now, that says women are supposed to do ALL the housework, raise children BY THEMSELVES (she didn't conceive the child by herself, now did she?), and etc.?
The same way there is no law out there that say men should pay for a women’s meals, drinks, wine, entertainment, etc. Men and women are both capable of doing house chores and paying.
I like to take women out, romance them, have long walks and conversations, etc. (look at my profile pic) as much as I like women doing those things for me. Nothing limits me or them to do nice gestures to each other regardless of being date #1 or date #100. Paying for dating expenses, romancing, nice gestures (chivalry going both ways), etc. go both ways with me and them, not just one way.
I think women should pay sometimes, treat me sometimes, ask me out sometimes, and sometimes split the expenses. I'm all for equality. However, the reality is that many women do not or will not ask men out, and still expect the traditional roles when it comes to courtship. It's a double standard, but there are plenty of other double standards that persist, and probably will for decades to come. Eventually, they may fade away as equality becomes the true norm. I can live with that.
Anyway, I don't worry about it. I'll expect to pay more often than not, and truly take note and appreciate when a woman I'm dating offers to take me out or pay for the date - or even just her half. When I was dating (online), all but one of the women I actually met or dated made first contact, but I usually asked them out first. Most were pretty good about sharing expenses, too, beyond the first couple of dates.
I don't expect to always pay, nor will I continue dating anyone who expects me to do so or acts entitled. If they really can't afford it, they can at least afford to buy me a drink occasionally - the gesture and intention matters more than the actual cost. I don't need to keep a balance sheet!
I am not saying they don’t. The women I go out with and I get along just fine as well. To each, their own.
And I totally agree with you. As much as I believe a man can wash dishes, cook, mop the kitchen floor, etc. I also believe a woman is totally capable of paying for her own dinner and her guy’s just like a man does for a woman. A nice balance between both men/women.
It seems you don’t like house chores to be labeled as a “woman’s job”, right? But you do support the idea that men paying for women’s expenses, her drinks, her meals, her entertainment, etc. is a “man’s job”, am I correct?
The same way there is no law out there that say men should pay for a women’s meals, drinks, wine, entertainment, etc. Men and women are both capable of doing house chores and paying.
I like to take women out, romance them, have long walks and conversations, etc. (look at my profile pic) as much as I like women doing those things for me. Nothing limits me or them to do nice gestures to each other regardless of being date #1 or date #100. Paying for dating expenses, romancing, nice gestures (chivalry going both ways), etc. go both ways with me and them, not just one way.
Okay...I understand your point a little better now, and again, I appreciate your feedback...
Tell me though, if you agree with me here...as far as 'the tab' goes, I think a man should do for a woman (i.e. expenses and such) because he WANTS to, not because he's under some invisible obligation to...and the same goes for the ladies---do for that man because you WANT to, not because of some invisible rule that say's you 'should'...
And you are right again---there's no law that says men and women can't split chores, date tabs, etc...the only bump in that road I've ever encountered is when I run into that woman (and excuse me ladies, I don't mean to offend, but I'm gonna put this out there) who's got her jaw stuck out and her arms folded, and this attitude of 'hold it buster...you're SUPPOSED to pay my way ALL the time!'...
Uh-uhh...once again, I'm doing for a woman because I WANT to, not because you think I'm bound and obligated to...that is why I love my wife and will move heaven and earth for her---she's got my back, and she knows after 7 years together I've got hers...through good times and lean times, we face life together...
And yes, just like there are some men who lay up and expect some clueless woman to 'take care of' or 'keep' them, as he brags to his 'boys' about 'how I got this chick on a string' (and that woman, bless her, takes his s**t because 'AHH LUVVVV HIMMM!'), there are some women who fully expect some lovestruck doofus of a guy to shower her with gifts and such, without the word 'reciprocation' being in her vocabulary, because her dad or granddad did it for her, and by god, you will too...
LOL---needless to say, in our circle, though it's rare, my wife and I choose not to 'hang out' with men and women who act like that...are we perfect? Hell no...but we see the value of teamwork and communication, and the absence of 'gender roles'...we both had folks like that in our pasts, but we learned from our mistakes and realize we make a better unit than 2 individuals pulling in different directions...
Okay...I understand your point a little better now, and again, I appreciate your feedback...
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Tell me though, if you agree with me here...as far as 'the tab' goes, I think a man should do for a woman (i.e. expenses and such) because he WANTS to, not because he's under some invisible obligation to...and the same goes for the ladies---do for that man because you WANT to, not because of some invisible rule that say's you 'should'...
That’s right. It is a nice gesture that can be done from both men and women even though it is not as common for women to do it as much as men. Some things are changing slow but at least they are changing.
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And you are right again---there's no law that says men and women can't split chores, date tabs, etc...the only bump in that road I've ever encountered is when I run into that woman (and excuse me ladies, I don't mean to offend, but I'm gonna put this out there) who's got her jaw stuck out and her arms folded, and this attitude of 'hold it buster...you're SUPPOSED to pay my way ALL the time!'...
Which seems to be what happens most of the time. Women expect/demand men to pay and many men feel less of a man if they don’t pay. You will have some exceptions out there and a few others who might consider splitting after they have gone through the months/years of initial and beginning stages. I rather see nice gestures from both parts right off the bat from the beginning/initial stages and on.
When women talk about the initial stages I wonder if they would like their husband to NOT HELP with house chores until they go through the months/years of initial/beginning stages of their marriage.
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Uh-uhh...once again, I'm doing for a woman because I WANT to, not because you think I'm bound and obligated to
That’s nice. The girls I go out with take me out for dinner, entertainment, etc. because they want to just the same way I want to take them out and so on. It goes back and forth naturally, no score keeping. I find it pretty nice. I’ve gone out with western women who are not like that but then again it is no big deal, I know there are cultural differences so I go along. Heck, I am going out with one this weekend, no problem.
Women keep saying “whoever asks pays”. Question, who does the majority of the asking out, taking initiative, etc.? Men. So “whoever asks pays” really means “men pay”.
That’s right. It is a nice gesture that can be done from both men and women even though it is not as common for women to do it as much as men. Some things are changing slow but at least they are changing.
Which seems to be what happens most of the time. Women expect/demand men to pay and many men feel less of a man if they don’t pay. You will have some exceptions out there and a few others who might consider splitting after they have gone through the months/years of initial and beginning stages. I rather see nice gestures from both parts right off the bat from the beginning/initial stages and on.
When women talk about the initial stages I wonder if they would like their husband to NOT HELP with house chores until they go through the months/years of initial/beginning stages of their marriage.
That’s nice. The girls I go out with take me out for dinner, entertainment, etc. because they want to just the same way I want to take them out and so on. It goes back and forth naturally, no score keeping. I find it pretty nice. I’ve gone out with western women who are not like that but then again it is no big deal, I know there are cultural differences so I go along. Heck, I am going out with one this weekend, no problem.
Women keep saying “whoever asks pays”. Question, who does the majority of the asking out, taking initiative, etc.? Men. So “whoever asks pays” really means “men pay”.
You refer to North American girls as 'western', are you from Europe/Asia, somewhere else?
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Nope...
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