I believe that a lot of women make it hard for themselves...not to mention for men (American, seeking)

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

I swear.

If I were a man dating these days, and if this were an issue for me, I'd just say before that first date, when planning it, "Hey so I prefer to split the check on dates, I want to be sure that you know, in case this restaurant may or may not fit with your budget, and so you know what to expect...it's just been my experience this feels less pressure-ish for everybody involved. Does that work for you?"

And any woman who flounces off in a huff from this, or judges it negatively, I'd be like, "Well I dodged a bullet," in my mind, because clearly someone who feels entitled to something that they aren't entitled to, is not a good fit. Right?

The guys I've dated that I had the most respect for and hold in the highest regard in my mind and memory, did this exact sort of thing. And my fiance and I still split expenses along fair and mutually agreed lines, when we eat out, we each pay for our own. I just don't see where it HAS to be like this for guys.

I think that's fine for a woman to say, and some do. I don't think it is for a guy. It sounds cheap, and I think there would be no shortage of woman who were planning on paying their own still being turned off by that.




I just don't get this nickel and diming though. When we were young and broke we got a pitcher and pizza. Now, thai or Mexican or whatever. It's all just not much money. I don't get fretting about it. If I couldn't afford that without thinking, its time to take a dating break.

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

So you're going on this date expecting to (and wanting to) pay, but already resenting your date for letting you do that? She can't win on this, can she?

Nope, classic self fulfilling prophecy.

[Sonic_Spork]

Originally Posted by Atlguy39

I answered this in another post. Not that simple for a man with my values.

See, that's fine, but then you should really own that. You don't get to say, "I did this thing and it's all your fault." Women are not in some driver's seat making you pay. If you don't want to pay, then find a way to say so. Nobody is making you do a damn thing.

And for you to be like, "Well if I pay, then maybe I'll get a second date, but if I don't, then I definitely will not" is BS. That's revealing exactly what it is in your mind, an attempt to use your wallet to nudge the outcome, ie MANIPULATE and obligate someone by paying for a meal. You don't think so, because from your perspective you're trying to avoid a possible negative judgment you think will happen, but I'm telling you that if you straight up told a woman, "I'm paying because I figure if I don't, then you definitely won't want to see me again" I guarantee she would not want to, in fact if a man said that to me, I'd probably walk out of the restaurant right then and he could save himself the trouble of "buying" a first, second, third, or ANY date with me ever.

[Atlguy39]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

But you were saying, that you didn't expect to get a 2nd date out of it, even if you did pay. So what's the difference? With that expectation, you can afford to take that risk, can't you? And you're not in the South anymore, are you? Is OK, or wherever you live now, considered "the South"? Or I guess it doesn't matter, since we know it's a very traditional area anyway?

I just find it strange that a woman can invite a guy from OLD, a stranger, to dinner, and assume he will pay for everything. That would be a pretty good racket. OTOH, I guess if you really do think the date will go nowhere, you can always decline her invitation.

edit: Now I'm wondering why she would assume that any guy she invites to dinner would accept her invitation. Is she pretty good-looking, is that it? So strange....

Haha! Well, yes, she seems to be attractive, but I haven't met her in person. In my mind, the who pays question is a conundrum I can't seem to resolve for myself. Yes, where I live is very traditional, so might as well be the south even if it is the Plains, or whatever.

I'm ok with paying I guess because I'm just used to it. Also, no woman has ever pressed the issue of paying and then gone out with me a second time. Well, actually one has, but she was a unicorn for sure and had a lot of money. Thats my experience. They usually pay their way because they don't want to go out with you again.

[RbccL]

Originally Posted by timberline742

I think that's fine for a woman to say, and some do. I don't think it is for a guy. It sounds cheap, and I think there would be no shortage of woman who were planning on paying their own still being turned off by that.




I just don't get this nickel and diming though. When we were young and broke we got a pitcher and pizza. Now, thai or Mexican or whatever. It's all just not much money. I don't get fretting about it. If I couldn't afford that without thinking, its time to take a dating break.






Nope, classic self fulfilling prophecy.

Agreed, for a guy to warn me that he “expects me to pay my own way”, when I intended to in the first place (and maybe his?), kind of starts out on the wrong foot. It almost gives the feel of preconceived notions in women and their free mealz rights.

I don’t blame some men for being confused, but it’s just one of those things that’s makes an impression. I don’t discuss the money, so that’s who I’m comfortable with as well.

[Atlguy39]

Originally Posted by RbccL

Agreed, for a guy to warn me that he “expects me to pay my own way”, when I intended to in the first place (and maybe his?), kind of starts out on the wrong foot. It almost gives the feel of preconceived notions in women and their free mealz rights.

I don’t blame some men for being confused, but it’s just one of those things that’s makes an impression. I don’t discuss the money, so that’s who I’m comfortable with as well.

Exactly. I rarely agree with you, but you nailed it for me. Its not about the money, its about a woman judging a man as "cheap" or whatever other adjective you want to use. It is a first impression kind of thing. Its also a very awkward discussion I'd rather not have. Easier to just pay unless the woman takes some initiative AND communicates she'd like to see me again. That would be like a dream come true, lol.

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by timberline742

I just don't get this nickel and diming though. When we were young and broke we got a pitcher and pizza. Now, thai or Mexican or whatever. It's all just not much money. I don't get fretting about it. If I couldn't afford that without thinking, its time to take a dating break.

This is the other thing I don't get. Most of the guys complaining here in the past about having to pay for dinner (or whatever), have been in their 20's or early 30's, in the young-and-broke phase of life, or early-career-building phase (to put it generously). Yet they talk about women (sweeping generalization) expecting some high-end venue for dinner: tablecloths, strolling violinists, 3 courses minimum. This simply is not believable. What's more believable, is that these guys have rarely been on any dinner dates at all, and are getting their rant topics from someone else's blog.

Still, Atlguy is no spring chicken, yet he seems to have encountered these expectations? Really? I wonder where he takes his dates to dinner. If he's dating that much (bravo! At least he's still playing with the home team, rather than with the Ukraine contenders), maybe he should scale back to Thai? Or as he suggested himself, make it coffee, instead, or lunch? IDK. I can see his dilemma, if he sets high standards for himself, but then again... he's the one setting those standards and (apparently) setting the trap for himself.

I still can't get over the idea that there are women on OLD who are basically inviting themselves to dinner with their choice of guys, and expecting the guys to pay. Or maybe they're not expecting the guys to pay, but like Atlguy, the guys insist? So that, in turn, causes the women to come to expect it?

*aughh*. It's too much. Too complicated. Too unnecessarily angsty. There's gotta be a better way. Maybe all OLD sites should have a rule, that all first dates are Dutch. As if instructing children.

[Auraliea]

Atlguy, this is not a personal attack but it seems you have such a negative outlook on relationships here in the states that you were/are subconsciously projecting that energy out into the world, by going for the types of women you keep complaining about. Have you ever considered that you only adopted this mindset so you won't have to take any personal accountability for the women you go for? I'm seriously asking.

[Sonic_Spork]

Originally Posted by timberline742

I think that's fine for a woman to say, and some do. I don't think it is for a guy. It sounds cheap, and I think there would be no shortage of woman who were planning on paying their own still being turned off by that.




I just don't get this nickel and diming though. When we were young and broke we got a pitcher and pizza. Now, thai or Mexican or whatever. It's all just not much money. I don't get fretting about it. If I couldn't afford that without thinking, its time to take a dating break.






Nope, classic self fulfilling prophecy.

Right, but I'd bet my next dinner that you are at least prepared to own the fact, that's how YOU see it. You are not here complaining that women judge guys who don't automatically pay, or that we're all out to game you for free meals or any such thing.

YOU date the way that feels comfortable for you. And you take ownership of your choices and it's not a big deal.

But I'm saying, I really do not think that women-in-general would crucify a man as "cheap" for simply asking if it's OK to split a check. Some of us (hi!) the ones who offer or insist on paying our own way, that you have encountered, have an actual preference to split the check and we don't care who suggests it.

I respect men who take responsibility for things they are responsible for and assume that I'm an adult who will do the same, I respect frugal and financially sensible men, and I hate the feeling when guys pay, where I will then feel additionally guilty for rejecting him if I'm not into him (that is already awkward) or that he's trying to obligate me to something that I don't want to feel obligated to. It doesn't make him look better in my eyes. Not definitely worse either...but not better.

I definitely don't judge a guy as "cheap" for asking to split a check. *shrug*

But that's one of those things where I feel that we're allowed to see it differently. So long as we can all acknowledge that we don't need to blame anybody for our feelings or opinions.

Guys saying that they HAVE to pay because women will see them in a bad light, is like women saying that a man who pays, IS trying to pressure us for sex or "buy" us or something. My discomfort isn't anything a man is doing, it's just a feeling I have...I own it. I have a hard time enjoying a guy paying my way. I'd rather he didn't.

EDIT: A fair point I'm thinking, perhaps it depends on how he phrases it. The hypothetical "if I were a guy" comment I typed in an earlier post would not offend me. A guy saying, "Just so you know, I expect you to pay your own way. I'm not getting scammed for dinners here." would come off bitter and nasty. Tact is everything.

[Ruth4Truth]

Who said the first date has to involve dinner, anyway? Especially with a stranger? Why do guys keep doing this, only to complain afterwards? (Or proactively beforehand, as the case may be...). Why not counter-offer a museum date perhaps followed by appetizers somewhere? What is with this dinner-date cliche that won't go away?

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Who said the first date has to involve dinner, anyway? Especially with a stranger? Why do guys keep doing this, only to complain afterwards? (Or proactively beforehand, as the case may be...). Why not counter-offer a museum date perhaps followed by appetizers somewhere? What is with this dinner-date cliche that won't go away?

It's something I only hear about on this forum. That said, there are a lot of things I only hear about on this forum.


My women friends have no desire to commit to a meal with someone they don't know. They want to get a cocktail or something and talk and take it from there.




That said, I guess I have a dinner first date on Thursday? I don't know if its a date. I don't really care. I mean, we connected on tinder, but it turns out we met before, in 1993. She was part of a group of us that drove from Vermont to Dayton for a music fest, no A/C, camping, tunes... only time we met. Small world. So its not a first meeting, and 27 years later, but whatev. If we hook up it will be a date, if not its old friends catching up. Either is cool.