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I think you're nitpicking about the gift to her mom. Yes, it's frivolous, but she didn't buy it for herself.
I guess the real question you need to answer is, is she worth it? If she is worth it, then you need to find out if you can come to an agreement on what to have now versus what to save for the future. Frankly, it seems you fall on the end of saving it all for the future versus having any fun now. I'm not sure where she falls, but it doesn't sound like she's a spend now and pay for it later, if she only has student loans. The question becomes, can she live with your being potentially over frugal or even possibly cheap?
I have to agree with this.
OP, I read several of your posts so that I don't miss anything. It seems to ME that you and your fiancee are not very compatible in term of long term financial planning and long term goal.
For example, You need a prenup (it sounds like it anyway), she is NOT even OPEN to the idea. Prenup is long term financial planning and any financial savvy individuals should at least sit each other down and talk about this kind of things. What about 401k, what about life insurance, what about medical expenses, if you can openly talk about this kind of thing, you should NOT consider prenup as a taboo subject.
You don't have to say, "What if we divorce." You can try different approach, "In term of either one of us get sick, etc." Like I said earlier, it is not about what you say, it is how you say it. You can get your point acrossed without being disrespectful or insulting.
It also looks like you have some resentment of her current income status. She has debt, she is not making as much as you do. She spent 200 dollars on her mom's birthday gift, YOU HAVE TO PAY 80% OF THE DATING EXPENSES.
I can tell you that in my past relationships, ALL my ex boyfriends paid for ALL our dating expenses happily and willingly. When one of my ex got sick, I happily and willingly helped out his car payment. (He drove a Lexus and the car payment was around $500 / month) I paid for that bill for three months until he found another job. He also helped me tremendously with my new business. I know for a lot of people, we were nuts, but to us, it was very logical to help each other out financially because we trusted and loved each other. We broke up for different reasons, Money is definitely not the issue.
I personally will sign a prenup because I want to protect myself, my future spouse and our marriage against screwed up, broken financial system. I simply will NOT marry somebody I don't trust, or somebody I will resent in the future. It looks like your fiancee's spending habit, employment status, income level bother you, and you are not willing to take on her share of the financial responsibility (If there is really a fair share). You have to ask yourself if this marriage is good for you.
I wish everybody out there were like you and me, but if you believe the statistics that means only 54% of the people are like us. That 46% failure rate means you have a lot higher chance of having your marriage dissolve than your house burning down, yet most people still carry homeowners insurance and at a far higher cost than a prenup.
I don't put a lot of stock in statistics with things like this. This isn't something like cancer that strikes people at random. A marriage takes work. You should know the person inside and out before getting married. You should know that you are compatible. You should already have had some hardships that you had to deal with together. Also - the statistics vary greatly by education level, income, etc. It's not the same across the board.
I look at my marriage like an investment. It is worth everything I own for a chance of lifelong happiness. And so far so good.
I disagree about the spending of $200 when one has debt and no emergency savings. Building an emergency savings should be the top priority, not giving gifts to others. As for having fun, we have plenty of fun together, the bulk of which I pay for. I take her on mini-vacations from time to time that cost me several hundred dollars a pop...I don't complain as I enjoy it as well and I have been blessed that I have the resources to comfortably afford it.
Part of the problem is that her brother is a bum who gets involved with all these ponzi schemes and also entices her mother to join in his ponzi ideas. The mom has lost a few homes to foreclosure and lost a huge amount of money also, so I hear. My GF was also involved in some ponzi scheme orchestrated by her brother when she was in her early 20s and owed $30,000 which she said she worked 3 jobs to pay off. It was her brother's idea to buy the mom a water fountain and he asked my GF to contribute half... I was upset as my GF has a lot of things she needs money for including a major vacation which she is contributing 40% of the expenses, a traffic ticket that she got recently, she needs some furnishings for her place, she wants to do a trek next year to Africa which will cost $5000 etc. etc. $200 not spent on something frivolous like a fountain would be MUCH better spent on the multitude of other things that she needs to spend on.
I am not saying that she should never ever give her mom a $200 gift, I am saying it is not the right time to do it when one has other priorities. And what is to say that once we get married she suddenly realizes that there is a sh!tload of more money available and starts gifting away? When some people get a lot of income their spending may also change... going from $60k/yr income to a household income of almost $200,000 is a huge upswing.
Perhaps we should set a strict budget and anything not on the budget is not acceptable unless it is an emergency? The budget can include some discretionary expenditure. Then it will be her choice to spend all her discretionary budget the way she deems fit - whether it is on gifts or anything else.
The budget is a good conversation to have with her. Does she want to live on a strict budget? Just the word "strict" doesn't really go with the description of her behavior that you posted above. If you do set a budget like that, I have found more success setting a savings goal and paying into savings somewhere inaccessible (brokerage funds) and then having the rest of the money for the month available to spend. That changes the perspective a bit from being limited to being free to spend whatever is easily accessible.
I would also recommend that you talk with her about her expectations for financial support to her family. It sounds like her mother may be headed for trouble when she is too old to work. Does she plan to send financial support to her mother? Is that something that you can live with if the no-good brother starts siphoning off funds from the mother or engages her in more ponzi schemes using your money? I am not saying if it would be right or wrong to support her mother, but it is something that is likely to come up and you should know what you are getting into in advance.
Love is most *definitely* more important to me than any amount of money I could ever have...
What scares me and motivates me much more strongly toward separate accounts is, my late father's former live-in girlfriend seriously abused the joint account she had with him following his death: she cleaned out the account, and then fled the state, with said financial assets. Because of this, my immediate family was robbed of hundreds of thousands of dollars that we were legally-entitled to, but my father's joint account with his girlfriend changed everything irrevocably, in an instant...
Are there any legal safeguards at all that a married person with a joint account can take, to prevent abuse similar to the above, from occurring? I am not unchangeably opposed to joint accounts if there was some way of protecting them from abuse...a potential repeat of the nightmare scenario I described above is really what terrifies me, when even thinking about joint accounts...
I think you are talking about a unique situation that people have difficulty talking about before an event like this actually happens.
My dad passed away...theoretically my mom is entitled to do whatever she wishes with the remaining money. Would she ever have someone on a joint account with her like a live in boyfriend...no way.
Now on my husband's side of the family I can see a situation like what you describe occurring. Was there a will? I ultimately believe in situations like that the person having the joint account has to know there is some possibility of something like you described occurring, but for they have a reason they don't wish to have separate accounts. In my husband's family's case it would be that the individual ultimately cares more for the "girlfriend" than he does the children.
Now on my husband's side of the family I can see a situation like what you describe occurring. Was there a will? I ultimately believe in situations like that the person having the joint account has to know there is some possibility of something like you described occurring, but for they have a reason they don't wish to have separate accounts. In my husband's family's case it would be that the individual ultimately cares more for the "girlfriend" than he does the children.
It's a lil complicated...my father was having major health problems before he passed, and may or may not have been completely coherent, and the girlfriend took advantage of his weakness and pressured him strongly, while weak and literally on his deathbed, to change the will in her favor. From what I have heard and what I can remember of the events, she may have possibly even gone as far as to brazenly forge his signature on the "modified" will, in his moment of medical weakness and/or helplessness...
akck, I have no issues with anyone having fun, trust me I have a LOT of fun... but only within my means and only after I have made sure i've saved a good chunk. No way I would spend on frivolous items when I had debt and no emergency savings... $200 is still a lot when one has debt to repay and savings to build.
Perhaps my standards are way too high.. who knows
You are perhaps not very happy with your relationship.
This does not make any logical sense. How can the standard of living established during the marriage be preserved if the marital assets are divided and one shared household on the same income is now 2 separate households that are much more expensive to maintain? Logic dictates that if a person loses half his assets the standard of living is going to go much lower than what it was during marriage.
In addition there is a tremendous financial setback for BOTH parties in terms of retirement etc. so the marital standard can definitely not be preserved at all...by no stretch of the imagination is this even logical...who wrote these laws, yikes!
Don't try to bring logic into any discussion about alimony. Logic would dictate that alimony is only appropriate when one spouse in the divorce, through no fault of their own, ends up completely indigent, unable to work, and about to go on public assistance. This is basically the alimony law in Texas and Indiana.
Instead, we have a situation where someone can cheat on their spouse, screw the football team, kick their spouse out of the house on a false domestic violence charge, move a new partner into the house, THEN file for divorce, and be awarded the majority of the marital estate, none of the debt, and 40% of the ex-spouses income for life, even past retirement. Yes, folks, this is what happens in Colorado.
Instead, we have a situation where someone can cheat on their spouse, screw the football team, kick their spouse out of the house on a false domestic violence charge, move a new partner into the house, THEN file for divorce, and be awarded the majority of the marital estate, none of the debt, and 40% of the ex-spouses income for life, even past retirement. Yes, folks, this is what happens in Colorado.
That's total b.s. and it's time to elect some new leaders who will change these rules.
I have NEVER believed in alimony. Child support is one thing, but alimony has always struck me as ridiculous and it's certainly outdated in a time when women and men can support themselves financially.
"In a manner you're accustomed to" is the biggest crock of **** I have ever heard. NO. That was your lifestyle when you were married. This is your new life. DEAL WITH IT.
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I am not unchangeably opposed to joint accounts if there was some way of protecting them from abuse...a potential repeat of the nightmare scenario I described above is really what terrifies me, when even thinking about joint accounts...
