Women's view of men and pornography

[udolipixie]

Originally Posted by Philosophizer

And what of the women who enjoy being "degraded" or "objectified"? Are they not true women for having such sexual desires? Is it invalid and totally due to social conditioning in a sexist world that a woman might have fantasies about having a train ran on her? Or is it empowering to a woman to have so many suitable partners at her disposal, catering to her every desire?

Nowhere did I state, suggest, or imply anything about gals who enjoy being degraded or objectified or about what makes a woman a "true woman" so do tell why you're questioning me about things I never mentioned?

Care to show where I made any mention or inkling other other than a gal not okay with pornography doesn't mean she's not comfortable with her sexuality rather it more logically means she may not comfortable with the degrading, humiliating, and objectification in pornography?

[monumentus]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

Are you even reading at this point?

Are you? I am the one who worked meticulously through a lot of your links and has replied to every post you have made towards me on this thread.

You meanwhile are the cop out and run merchant who ignores posts I have made - skips over them - abandons one link in favor of the next and the next and the next- and refuses to answer the challange I have levelled against you not once but four times now as to which of your many links and footnotes you want me to open and evaluate next.

Accusing others of that which only you are engaged in is a poor tactic.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

this is one of the first links I posted!

And it is one of the first links I evaluated. So I have no idea what your problem is. I am not sure at this stage even you know what your problem is any more. The link was a blog entry written by a person who shares your opinion. We can all find those. Worse the blog entry in question was built on a crass and baseless assumption from which everything else in the entry was based.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

You made the judgement call that it was biased with, really, no evidence of that whatsoever.

Again you are being false - disingenuous - and dishonest here. I did not simply call it biased and dismiss it. I pointed out that the foundation claim the entire blog entry was made on was not references, evidenced or cited. That is no small failing or a simple dismissal on my part. It is a gaping hole in the usefulness of the blog entry itself.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

You just accused the author of being motivated by bias, opinion, and agenda with no reason to do so

Same lie you are telling here. I did have a reason to do so. My reason was that the core claim that the entire opinion piece was based on was simply extracted from the authors rear end. It was not cited - evidenced - or based on anything but the authors imagination.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

save that it was easier than going over the studies referenced for each claim.

But I did. Which is how I know the core claim of the article was unevidenced and uncited. If defending your position here requires you pretend I did not do things I actually did then you are on weaker ground than I so far suspected.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

I take the quote "pornography is a very effective teacher of beliefs and behaviors" (taken from the introductory paragraph) as the point of the document, and therefore consider the studies cited support for that claim.

Which study cited supports that specific claim then?

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

Yes, you argued against one claim in the document, and I'm wondering why this is all you addressed

I told you why. It is the core claim on which every other claim in the article is based or referenced against. If the core claim of the article fails - so do the rest.

[Vic 2.0]

No, monumentus, you did not evaluate the third link. You, once more, assumed the author had an agenda, wrote the entire document off as an opinion piece even though over 30 references were used, and are still trying to sell the idea that the one claim (one found in the body and not even in the introductory paragraph or title) that had no references is the basis for the document, which it is not. This wasn't an evaluation. Further, since my very first mention of the document read...

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

The following is a document in which the author lists other associations between pornography and violence against women, including acceptance of the rape myth and trivialization of rape.

http://www.socialcostsofpornography.com/Layden_Pornography_and_Violence.pdf

...you knew exactly what to look for and evaluate then, but you chose not to, again for the non-reasons I just listed. In identical style, you later replied to the following with "When did you cite these?", confirming that you didn't even look at the document's references.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

When and where did you even address the following studies, much less "evaluate" and find "the effects on the Rape Myth found were trivial to non-existent"?

Check and Malamuth, 1985.
Ohbuchi, K. Ikeda, T. & Takeuchi, G, 1994.
Weisz & Earls, 1995.
Millburm, Mather and Conrad, 2000.
Corne, Briere & Esses, 1992.
Check & Guloien, 1989.

And then on trivialization of rape:

Zillmann and Bryant, 1984.

Now, really, when and where did you find "the effects on the Rape Myth found were trivial to non-existent"? I can't find anything on the subject from you in this thread.

Unfortunately, it's hard to find the full documentation of these studies online without money to waste. But with so much consensus online about what these studies have found (and with yet no conflicting research on pornography and rape myth acceptance or trivialization of rape found by either me or you), I consider this good enough. Once again, you might not consider it good enough, and that's fine by me.

[monumentus]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

No, monumentus, you did not evaluate the third link. You, once more, assumed the author had an agenda

Lying will not make the truth go away magically. The evaluation was in post #154.

Nor did I "assume" the author had an agenda. They specifically and openly ADMIT their own agenda on that website. As I said the link is not a study - but an opinion piece written for a blog. A blog with a specific anti pornography agenda which they declare openly and that all the scholars involved in the project were chosen due to them sharing "a common interest in addressing pornography's devastating social cost."

Any "study" on the issue should not be a biased blog entry on a biased website made up of biased people. It should be impartial - and deal only with the data.

Further as I pointed out in the evaluation you are now trying to pretend I never gave - the entire blog entry is based on the claim made in the first paragraph -

Pornography is a potent teacher of both beliefs and behaviors, and in fact provides the ideal conditions for learning.

- and nothing in the blog OR the citations at the bottom supports that assertion. It is just asserted and assumed and everything else the link discusses is based on that core assumption.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

(one found in the body and not even in the introductory paragraph or title)

Also false and a lie. Did you even read it? The claim I am referring to is the very first sentence of the very first opening paragraph. The exact opposite of the lie you tell above. Read again my evaluation that you are now lying that I never gave:

Originally Posted by monumentus

It starts out with the writer declaring a bias and opinion. Studies and papers should be impartial but this one is openly - from literally the first sentence - declaring the authors bias and position. The author simply asserts - based on nothing at all - that people learn sexual behavior from pornography.

and this refers specifically to the opening sentence - and the fact that the idea in that opening sentence is carried throughout the entire document - is the foundation for the majority of the claims in that document - but is itself asserted without citation or support.

The author THEN goes on to declare -

Originally Posted by monumentus

“ We also learn better when aroused” declares the author. Do we? How do we know this? The author cites no references or support for this “factoid”. It is simply asserted. Even if it IS true – lets assume it is for one moment – that in no way means we simply accept everything we see as “true” or “right” simply because we are – at that moment – more open to “learning”.

- and this is AGAIN not just one random little fact I am picking on for no reason. It is again part of the core claim of the entire blog entry.

And I am now asking for the sixth time (or have I lost count) for you to tell me which paper you specifically want me to read and open next? Still cant do it can you?

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

But with so much consensus online about what these studies have found

Not in any of the links I have thus far read and evaluated. But as I keep asking - by all means tell me which one to read and evaluate next. Why you are continuously ignoring that request is beyond me - but I can only suspect it is due to even your own lack of faith in the articles in question.

[Vic 2.0]

I listed the studies twice, those that the author used to support the claims about pornography's effect on rape myth acceptance and trivialization of rape. I've pointed out that, while we cannot examine the studies without paying for it, there is much consensus online (a quick Google search will confirm) in regards to what the studies have found. I've challenged your accusation that this is an "opinion piece" by an author with a bias, as you've given no real reason to think so (No, giving your conclusion before giving your claims with references does not mean the conclusion is indicative of a bias). I've pointed out repeatedly that neither of us can find experimental research that even claims something contrary to what the existing research has found on the subject of pornography's effect on rape myth acceptance and trivialization of rape. And though you've claimed that you've evaluated a link and found that the effects were trivial or non-existent, you've ignored my challenge to quote exactly where you did this.

Go on. If you merely repeat the same arguments again, I'll leave our discussion at that.

[Ascension2012]

Vic i only see you post here when a thread on porn comes up. Do you have some sort of alert set up, that you receive an email every time that happens> Porn is a part of every day life for most adults and there are minimal to no negative effects because of it. Why are you so sensitive to it and scarred by it? Did your wife run off with ROn Jeeremy or some other pornstar, whats the deal buddy?

[monumentus]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

I listed the studies twice, those that the author used to support the claims about pornography's effect on rape myth acceptance and trivialization of rape. I've pointed out that, while we cannot examine the studies without paying for it, there is much consensus online in regards to what the studies have found.

I am seeing no such consensus. certainly not in the links you have thus far provided. Which is why I am now asking you - repeatedly - for which study you want me to open and read next. You continuously ignore this request I note. What is this now - the 7th time?

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

I've challenged your accusation that this is an "opinion piece" by an author with a bias

And I answered that challenege. It is not a published article but a blog entry on a website. That is a fact. The website in question wear their anti porn bias openly and proudly on their pages. That is also a fact. Your challange has been answered therefore - and found wanting.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

as you've given no real reason to think so

Once again - ignoring what I have written does not magically mean I did not write it. The reasons are clear and repeated above. And again here: It is a blog site - not a peer reviewed journal. It is a site composed solely (and openly) of people with the opinion that pornography is harmful.

But the bias is not my main problem with the opinion piece. My main problem is it is based on a core claim - the claim about porn and its relationships to learning and our ability to learn in the moment of its use - and that core claim is asserted without citation - support - or evidence.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

I'll leave our discussion at that.

So you keep saying. But you keep returning. So I will assume the above is once again false and see you soon.

[Vic 2.0]

Originally Posted by Ascension2012

Vic i only see you post here when a thread on porn comes up. Do you have some sort of alert set up, that you receive an email every time that happens> Porn is a part of every day life for most adults and there are minimal to no negative effects because of it. Why are you so sensitive to it and scarred by it? Did your wife run off with ROn Jeeremy or some other pornstar, whats the deal buddy?

It'd be more accurate to say I post in almost every porn thread, as I've posted on many other subjects, both here in the Relationships forum and elsewhere. I think my "deal" is that I acknowledge the subject's full of unanswered questions and unresolved disputes. I want to discuss it more because I feel there is more discuss. It's an ongoing debate, with intellectuals actually taking positions on both sides of the fence.

[monumentus]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

with intellectuals actually taking positions on both sides of the fence.

Perhaps but I would not - not that you are but I feel it worth pointing it out just in case - use this to imagine the onus of proof is split equally in two directions. As another user on this forum writes - it is worth treating things as "innocent until proven guilty" and unless there is evidence that porn is harmful we should assume it is not.

So I would see no onus of evidence on anyone taking the position that there is no reason to think it harmful - rather the onus is on them to evaluate the evidence presented by those who claim it IS. Which is why I keep asking which study you specifically feel I should open and evaluate next.

That you can not or will not answer that question is rather telling about your own faith in your data and evidence which is why I keep asking it. Your failure to answer it does more to harm your cause than anything else I have been saying I feel.