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oh please, men have been trying to persuade women to go to bed with them for ages. some call it courtship.
Courtship was usually angled towards finding a partner, not just bedding random women.
It's not courtship, not at all.
Guys on here wonder why women are so gun shy and so hesitant to give out their number or get close to a guy...well, this is why. They have issues trusting men and believing that they have good intentions. Nope, most men are just trying to manipulate you into feeling comfortable around them and that they actually like you when in reality they're just trying to trick you into bed.
I've gotten a lot of my lady friends into reading PUA stuff...I think it's saved a lot of heartache and they've thanked me for it. Learning how to spot these guys (whether it's 'natural' or 'learned') is important for women.
Courtship was usually angled towards finding a partner, not just bedding random women.
It's not courtship, not at all.
Guys on here wonder why women are so gun shy and so hesitant to give out their number or get close to a guy...well, this is why. They have issues trusting men and believing that they have good intentions. Nope, most men are just trying to manipulate you into feeling comfortable around them and that they actually like you when in reality they're just trying to trick you into bed.
I've gotten a lot of my lady friends into reading PUA stuff...I think it's saved a lot of heartache and they've thanked me for it. Learning how to spot these guys (whether it's 'natural' or 'learned') is important for women.
yep, guilty as charged. i'm one of those guys that sometimes just wants to get laid without having an LTR with a woman. And the women who accommodate my desires often know it.
glad to hear you're going out to protect women against men who want to improve their potential with women. Most guys are familiar with the dating junk put out by Cosmo, Marie Claire, etc. so its probably a good thing women are exposed to the PUA stuff. Believe it or not there are some women who thnk it's a good idea that some guys do what they can to improve their dating and relationship skills.
yep, guilty as charged. i'm one of those guys that sometimes just wants to get laid without having an LTR with a woman. And the women who accommodate my desires often know it.
glad to hear you're going out to protect women against men who want to improve their potential with women. Most guys are familiar with the dating junk put out by Cosmo, Marie Claire, etc. so its probably a good thing women are exposed to the PUA stuff. Believe it or not there are some women who thnk it's a good idea that some guys do what they can to improve their dating and relationship skills.
As long as both parties are happy with just sex, that's awesome! That's not manipulation unless you string her along promising a relationship or guilting her into sex which I've seen with a few of my lady friends. I have zero issues with both men and women pursuing sex and only sex, but I just don't like when men manipulate women into it.
I don't read any of those magazines so I have no opinion on what they say or what they suggest. I also think it's great that men want to improve their dating and relationship skills but I don't think PUA is a good way of doing that. Why not join toastmasters or a meetup group? Why not volunteer and start talking to more people? There are a million other ways to improve the way you interact with people, why PUA? If these men wanted to simply improve the way they are socially they wouldn't focus only on learning how to manipulate women into sleeping with them.
As long as both parties are happy with just sex, that's awesome! That's not manipulation unless you string her along promising a relationship or guilting her into sex which I've seen with a few of my lady friends. I have zero issues with both men and women pursuing sex and only sex, but I just don't like when men manipulate women into it.
I don't read any of those magazines so I have no opinion on what they say or what they suggest. I also think it's great that men want to improve their dating and relationship skills but I don't think PUA is a good way of doing that. Why not join toastmasters or a meetup group? Why not volunteer and start talking to more people? There are a million other ways to improve the way you interact with people, why PUA? If these men wanted to simply improve the way they are socially they wouldn't focus only on learning how to manipulate women into sleeping with them.
Believe it or not, some of the PUA advice given falls along the same lines as you suggest. But i take a little issue with you characterizing this type of behavior manipulating, and of course it subject to anyone's definition. My issue is that it is a bit paternalistic to think that some women can't call b.s. on guys who are trying to "manipulate" them. Most attractive women learn very early in life how to shut down a guy she's not interested in or she suspects has bad motives.
Toastmasters are not even relevant to dating, any meetup group for dating is shunned.
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Why not volunteer and start talking to more people?
Because girls will think you are an amazing person but only think of you as a friend, becuase you don't know the techniques.
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There are a million other ways to improve the way you interact with people, why PUA?
There are a lot of ways to improve how you interact with people. However, there is not a lot of ways to learn how to attract women. You can be amazing socially, but if you don't know how to flirt with women then they will never see you as relationship material.
All your advice has not been relevant to dating at all.
It certainly isn't. If a guy make you feel amazing, then it is great if he did it naturally but if heused PUA then he is disgusting.
PUA doesn't make women feel amazing. It makes them feel manipulated, deceived, and used. Many PUAs won't stick around to see the aftermath of their "art" though.
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Should they just give up instead? Why is it the guys fault anyway? It is women who require those techniques before they will get attracted to you.
Lots of false premises & dichotomies here:
- There are other options to giving up or using PUA.
- It's not always the guy's fault. Just because you cannot hook up with tons of hot chicks doesn't mean you are flawed, although your goals may be. The flaw may be your idea of what will really make you happy.
- Women don't necessarily "require" those techniques to be attracted to you. Again, it's not "AFC" or "PUA" as if all men are one or the other.
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Originally Posted by Camlon
A lot of the material is not respectful, because the guys teaching, have sex with random women and then they dump them. People who respect women noramlly don't do that.
But have you or any of your friends created any alternative material? As long as PUA is the only place where you can get information about how to attract girls, then people are going to use it.
You admit is doesn't respect women... good. That's my point. Why would women be okay with something built on misogynistic ideas, meant to take advantage of them for sex...
And yes, there are TONS of materials for building self-confidence & learning how to have healthy relationships with the opposite sex (including attracting them to begin with). Hit up the self-help section of a bookstore sometime. Get some therapy from a PROFESSIONAL psycho-therapist & not some phony guru dude in a stupid hat.
But the fact of the matter is, those seeking PUA tips are often just looking to get laid, so real improvements in them as a person & healthy, mutually satisfying relationships are not a concern.
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And people are always going to hate any source of information telling guys how to attract girls. Women don't like the fact that people can use techniques to attract them. Hence any material telling guys how to attract women will be shunned.
There's a contradiction here, because PUA supporters claim it's working from the inside out - transforming yourself But these "techniques" or things you do/say are about an outer show, which is deception & manipulation, not offering someone a healthy dynamic for a relationship.
I don't think women begrudge men learning to have genuine confidence & healthy social skills & how to treat women well & be attractive to women. They are constantly giving men that advice around here to go do just that - but PUA arguably does NOT do that.
I don't think women begrudge men learning to have genuine confidence & healthy social skills & how to treat women well & be attractive to women. They are constantly giving men that advice around here to go do just that - but PUA arguably does NOT do that.
I heard it from several female posters here that there is lots of bad advice given to men on CDR. One even said men should do the opposite of what is said here.
No one is ever going to persuade you or others that PUA has any redeeming value. Really, not sure it matters that much.
^ I'm talking about advice to go find solutions & make improvements, not specific advice, which arise a lot around here anyway. The point is - why would heterosexual women want men to fail at finding mutually happy, healthy relationships? That makes no sense.
^ I'm talking about advice to go find solutions & make improvements, not specific advice, which arise a lot around here anyway. The point is - why would heterosexual women want men to fail at finding mutually happy, healthy relationships? That makes no sense.
well, on that point we agree, as i'm sure you will agree not all men and women are looking for LTRs and are just fine with a good clean hook up.
PUA doesn't make women feel amazing. It makes them feel manipulated, deceived, and used. Many PUAs won't stick around to see the aftermath of their "art" though.
No, it doesn't. If it made those women feel manipulated, deceived, and used then they wouldn't agree to it. It is afterwards when the guy does not stick around that she will feel like that.
But that has nothing to do with PUA. Plenty of people who laugh of PUA do the same.
PUA is about getting her attracted to you in the first place. Whatever you do after that is up to you.
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Lots of false premises & dichotomies here:
- There are other options to giving up or using PUA.
Yeah, you could potentially try to learn the same techniques by trial and error. But why should you? To please people like you?
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- It's not always the guy's fault. Just because you cannot hook up with tons of hot chicks doesn't mean you are flawed, although your goals may be. The flaw may be your idea of what will really make you happy.
Um.. they want to hook up with chicks, thats their choice. Should hooking up only be for naturals?
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- Women don't necessarily "require" those techniques to be attracted to you. Again, it's not "AFC" or "PUA" as if all men are one or the other.
Majority of women do. Majority of women are not attracted to needy men, men who don't flirt, or who is afraid to joke around.
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You admit is doesn't respect women... good. That's my point. Why would women be okay with something built on misogynistic ideas, meant to take advantage of them for sex...
No, I never said the material does not respect women. I said many of the ones teaching the material does not respect women.
But don't you think many of the women teaching women how to get advantage in the dating market respect men. It goes both ways.
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And yes, there are TONS of materials for building self-confidence & learning how to have healthy relationships with the opposite sex (including attracting them to begin with). Hit up the self-help section of a bookstore sometime. Get some therapy from a PROFESSIONAL psycho-therapist & not some phony guru dude in a stupid hat.
I have checked. There is hardly any material for how to attract women. What I find is material for women on how to attract men, I find materials for couples, and I find material on how to be successful in your career and socially.
Try looking for materials on how to attract women and you will find almost nothing, because it not considered acceptable for men to use techniques to learn how to attract women. Women want their actions to be genuine, not fake.
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But the fact of the matter is, those seeking PUA tips are often just looking to get laid, so real improvements in them as a person & healthy, mutually satisfying relationships are not a concern.
So? Thats their choice. It is up to the people reading the material how they will use it. The material in itself just tells you how to attract women, that's all.
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There's a contradiction here, because PUA supporters claim it's working from the inside out - transforming yourself But these "techniques" or things you do/say are about an outer show, which is deception & manipulation, not offering someone a healthy dynamic for a relationship.
It's not a contridiction, because those techniques will eventually become natural to you, and you will become one of the naturals.
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I don't think women begrudge men learning to have genuine confidence & healthy social skills & how to treat women well & be attractive to women. They are constantly giving men that advice around here to go do just that - but PUA arguably does NOT do that.
But the advice women give men is absolutly useless. The reason PUA is so popular among men is because they have already tried to listen to the advice to women and their mothers. It does not work, because women don't know what attracts them and what doesn't.
If you want to read that, read the book attraction is not a choice and you will understand why. As long as there is no other direct advice helping men to pick up women. Then PUA will remain popular. You can shun it, you can say it does not respect women.
But as long as you can not provide a suitable alternative then people will keep reading it.
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