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But (the bolded) is not because of wiring, but because of fundamentally different experiences. Men rarely have it happen, if they have it at all happen. I never have. Women, all the women I know, have been having it happen since they were 13-15 and have it happen regularly. If men were objectified (we're talking physically/sexually) throughout their life and we lived in a matriarchy, while women were rarely or every objectified, I think you'd see the viewpoints flip flopped. It isn't wiring, it is cultural experiences and thinking the other side has it better.
I just don't see differences in wiring or views on sex, relationships, etc No difference at all.
Mind you, we self select our friends, so of course there is a inherent perception bias, but the notions (for example) that women are more interested in emotional connections and trust before wanting to have sex with a guy, or a guy is more interested in looks and care less than compatibility on other issues than a womaen, or the most perplexing to me... that men can separate sex and love easily while women cannot... sorry, I don't see it at all. I didn't in my early 20s, I don't know in my early 40s. Nothing I see in dating relationships, or FWBs, or hooking up because someone just wants to get laid (saw quite a bit of that on this past trip to VT) indicates to me women are any different than dudes, in general. Individuals are of course different, and those differences completely trump any possible differences between the genders.
I will disagree, somewhat. Having been around the block a bit, and having dated several different types of women in different social circles...there is a much larger percentage of women (if I had to guess, maybe as high as 25%) than men for whom sex is not something they ever really desire or care much about. Not to say they don't enjoy it on some level somewhere, but there are plenty of women who have very little desire for sex with the possible exception of the "lust" phase of a relationship. Very few men are like that, however.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 37,024,941 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave72
It never happens to the vast majority of men, even most fairly good looking ones.
The reason we're (men) generally OK with the concept is because of how we are wired. We WANT a woman to use our bodies for their enjoyment. We want what we don't get.
Exactly. That is why I'm saying it isn't a wiring difference, it is a "the grass is always greener" situation. We don't experience it, so it sounds great.
Heck, it is one of the many reasons why I work out so much, and why when I'm just starting to see someone the quality of my workouts go through the roof. I'm pumped up and stoked: Whoop, someone is gonna see (and use me) nekkid!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave72
I will disagree, somewhat. Having been around the block a bit, and having dated several different types of women in different social circles...there is a much larger percentage of women (if I had to guess, maybe as high as 25%) than men for whom sex is not something they ever really desire or care much about. Not to say they don't enjoy it on some level somewhere, but there are plenty of women who have very little desire for sex with the possible exception of the "lust" phase of a relationship. Very few men are like that, however.
Yeah, I know the type, but no where near 25% (maybe 5%) and plenty of men don't have much of a drive either. I don't think it is any different there either. The differences are at the individual level, not the gender level.
But (the bolded) is not because of wiring, but because of fundamentally different experiences. Men rarely have it happen, if they have it at all happen. I never have. Women, all the women I know, have been having it happen since they were 13-15 and have it happen regularly. If men were objectified (we're talking physically/sexually) throughout their life and we lived in a matriarchy, while women were rarely or every objectified, I think you'd see the viewpoints flip flopped. It isn't wiring, it is cultural experiences and thinking the other side has it better.
I just don't see differences in wiring or views on sex, relationships, etc No difference at all.
Mind you, we self select our friends, so of course there is a inherent perception bias, but the notions (for example) that women are more interested in emotional connections and trust before wanting to have sex with a guy, or a guy is more interested in looks and care less than compatibility on other issues than a womaen, or the most perplexing to me... that men can separate sex and love easily while women cannot... sorry, I don't see it at all. I didn't in my early 20s, I don't know in my early 40s. Nothing I see in dating relationships, or FWBs, or hooking up because someone just wants to get laid (saw quite a bit of that on this past trip to VT) indicates to me women are any different than dudes, in general. Individuals are of course different, and those differences completely trump any possible differences between the genders.
This is the KEY point that very few people on this board seem to get!!
The differences ARE NOT because of gender. The differences ARE NOT because I have two X chromosomes and a man doesn't. The differences are NOT because we are "wired" differently. The differences are cultural, regional, familial, etc. My hormones dictate some things, like mood, but they certainly don't dictate my intellectual grasp of society.
You'll note that I seem to have a difference of opinion about being "objectified" than many of the women on this post. Pretty much daily I get yelled at on the street. "Girl, you is fine!!" "Baby girl, you got some great legs!" etc. I smile and move along. I don't feel threatened? Why? Because it's two seconds of my life and I am able to walk out of the situation quickly. The men saying these things aren't exactly Rhodes scholars. Why be offended? They look more foolish than I do because they are hitting on a woman who is basically out of their league. (I'm not saying that to be conceited. I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume that I'm leagues above a dude who is hanging out on the street with his "homies" at 10 a.m. on a weekday.)
This doesn't mean that I think it's okay to go up to a woman and grab her boobs/butt/whatever. I wouldn't be happy about that. Offended? No. I'd have some words for a man who did that, though.
Does it make me any less of a feminist for not being offended because a housing-challenged man yells things at me on the street? I don't think so.
Exactly. That is why I'm saying it isn't a wiring difference, it is a "the grass is always greener" situation. We don't experience it, so it sounds great.
Heck, it is one of the many reasons why I work out so much, and why when I'm just starting to see someone the quality of my workouts go through the roof. I'm pumped up and stoked: Whoop, someone is gonna see (and use me) nekkid!!
Yeah, I know the type, but no where near 25% (maybe 5%) and plenty of men don't have much of a drive either. I don't think it is any different there either. The differences are at the individual level, not the gender level.
I don't think it's that low. I think that, due to the complexities of the female libido and sexual response, that it's more common for women to be that way.
A fair number of women have never had an orgasm, in many cases, this is because they themselves are unable to even learn what gets them off, let alone show a man how or let him discover it. Often due to body image, upbringing, etc. These are the ones likely to fit my description above. Men are less likely to suffer from this.
I didn't read it like that, but I don't know the OP's posting history. The words themselves though didn't indicate to me anything like your impression above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATG5
I just re-read all of his posts and the context surrounded them, and didn't get that vibe whatsoever.
He even posted a funny video from Facebook that was relevant to the topic.
Not sure why you're assuming he has some ulterior motive here.
I think that if you were a woman and had read post after post about how women shouldn't be upset at being objectified because men would love to be objectified - you would probably read this the same way. Like I said, if the OP doesn't feel this way - then I apologize and am off base. But clearly there is a reason that so many women on here felt the same way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Guy
+1 its the classic case of "a person not being able to see past their own nose". For crying out loud Dewdroplet76, I don't feel like the OP is suggesting that women should be fine with being objectified.
For crying out loud, don't get your panties in a bunch! I'm just explaining why many of us had the reaction to this OP that we did!
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Guy
People that think the way Dewdroplet76 thinks is what sparks the "women play the victim" mindset. In reality, men objectifying and grabbing women happens WAY less than you think.
Are you a woman? Yeah - didn't think so. This isn't about playing the victim.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 37,024,941 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave72
I don't think it's that low. I think that, due to the complexities of the female libido and sexual response, that it's more common for women to be that way.
A fair number of women have never had an orgasm, in many cases, this is because they themselves are unable to even learn what gets them off, let alone show a man how or let him discover it. Often due to body image, upbringing, etc. These are the ones likely to fit my description above. Men are less likely to suffer from this.
And yet many women that haven't even had orgasms still love having sex. I have run into that, especially in my 20s. Hopefully they've figured it out.
And there is a reason there are so so very many sex toys designed for women. It isn't because a significant percentage don't like sex. Shoot, it isn't uncommon to see $500 worth of gadgets in a beside table nowadays.
Anyway, I stand by my positions. Individuals differ quite a bit. Genders overall? Not so much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdroplet76
I think that if you were a woman and had read post after post about how women shouldn't be upset at being objectified because men would love to be objectified - you would probably read this the same way. Like I said, if the OP doesn't feel this way - then I apologize and am off base. But clearly there is a reason that so many women on here felt the same way.
If the OP has made such threads, than I missed them. If they (the OP) had a history of making such threads and that registered while I was reading this one I'm sure it would have affected my perception of this particular thread.
This is the KEY point that very few people on this board seem to get!!
The differences ARE NOT because of gender. The differences ARE NOT because I have two X chromosomes and a man doesn't. The differences are NOT because we are "wired" differently. The differences are cultural, regional, familial, etc. My hormones dictate some things, like mood, but they certainly don't dictate my intellectual grasp of society.
You'll note that I seem to have a difference of opinion about being "objectified" than many of the women on this post. Pretty much daily I get yelled at on the street. "Girl, you is fine!!" "Baby girl, you got some great legs!" etc. I smile and move along. I don't feel threatened? Why? Because it's two seconds of my life and I am able to walk out of the situation quickly. The men saying these things aren't exactly Rhodes scholars. Why be offended? They look more foolish than I do because they are hitting on a woman who is basically out of their league. (I'm not saying that to be conceited. I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume that I'm leagues above a dude who is hanging out on the street with his "homies" at 10 a.m. on a weekday.)
This doesn't mean that I think it's okay to go up to a woman and grab her boobs/butt/whatever. I wouldn't be happy about that. Offended? No. I'd have some words for a man who did that, though.
Does it make me any less of a feminist for not being offended because a housing-challenged man yells things at me on the street? I don't think so.
Eh - I don't think you are talking about the same thing that many of the women on here are talking about. I don't really think of objectifying as simply yelling out "Nice butt!" Like I've said before, most people don't mind a compliment. And as far as feeling unsafe - it's great that you have never been in a situation that made you feel unsafe. I've never felt unsafe walking down the street in broad daylight surrounded by a bunch of people and getting hollered at. But I have felt unsafe in other situations where it wasn't broad daylight and there weren't a bunch of other people around.
Eh - I don't think you are talking about the same thing that many of the women on here are talking about. I don't really think of objectifying as simply yelling out "Nice butt!" Like I've said before, most people don't mind a compliment. And as far as feeling unsafe - it's great that you have never been in a situation that made you feel unsafe. I've never felt unsafe walking down the street in broad daylight surrounded by a bunch of people and getting hollered at. But I have felt unsafe in other situations where it wasn't broad daylight and there weren't a bunch of other people around.
No, I'm definitely talking about the same thing that the men are talking about. I think that's the issue. Men don't seem to be understanding the actual definition of objectification. The OP wants us to consider a girl grabbing his butt at a bar to be equal to the same experiences as women being objectified. It's not.
Some men keep asserting that they would feel flattering by being "objectified." I think your illustration of singing in a bikini is right on point. If they were doing a job they were proud of, and a woman commended them not on the job well done but on the bulge in their pants, I think they would feel offended.
A good example is in the movie Horrible Bosses, when Charlie Day's character was repeatedly harassed by Jennifer Aniston's character. It's humorous to think "Oh yeah, I'd love for a woman like Jennifer Aniston to objectify me," but when it comes down to potentially having your career and relationships tainted because of the person's behavior, that's a totally different ballgame.
As for never being in an unsafe situation, of course I have felt threatened by sexual advances at some point. That's what I was talking about before about why some men may have a different perspective. They've never seen that level of threat, so they consider an ass grab from a drunken co-ed to be the extent of objectification.
It never happens to the vast majority of men, even most fairly good looking ones.
The reason we're (men) generally OK with the concept is because of how we are wired. We WANT a woman to use our bodies for their enjoyment. We want what we don't get.
That's right. We want it but don't get it. I.don't regret being wired that way.
So, say you are a man and you are at a business meeting. After you offer some thought out, researched, and pretty ingenious suggestions about getting the company back on track - the people in the room respond with things like, "Just sit there and look pretty!" "Uh huh. Whatever, Mr. Tight buns." "Why don't you just sit back and let the smart people take over, Mr. Eye Candy." I bet it wouldn't feel so good to be objectified in that situation.
I'd be a little frustrated.
I'd probably storm out of the room with a frustrated... and depending on the woman making those remarks and the tone of her voice find some hidden area in order to have a frustrated...
um... vent?
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