The end of monogamy

[LookinForMayberry]

Originally Posted by MKTwet

I do think monogamy doesn't work anymore, I think we all need to accept open relationships. I'm not saying everybody must have open relationships. We must atleast accept a spouse or partner who does it responsibly. As humans we suck at being monogamous towards another person. It doesn't have to be done in a selfish and discreet way that leads to harmful mistrust. We need to accept that dating someone new is good for our mental health as well as fulfillment.

Thank goodness you aren't telling us all we have to accept open relationships. LOL

I made it clear up front with my DH that I had a zero tolerance for betrayals of any kind. If he wants to play outside the relationship, just say so and leave. He accepted that and other than having to nip his budding "friendship" with a female business associate, we've lasted 29 years without an incident. I occasionally ask if he wants to move on, but so far he's happy as things are.

[Sonic_Spork]

Originally Posted by Ned B

I agree with Sonic. The key is communication and defining boundaries upfront before they are broken.

At least in my experience at least the conversations about monogamy are now coming up earlier. My last boyfriend made it clear that he wanted to be monogamous before we even went on our first date. Granted he almost blocked me when I didn't respond to that message right away. I was grocery shopping and should have taken that as a sign to consider moving on because he didn't end up holding to his own rules in the relationship anyway. I also recently even had a friend who revealed that he felt out of place because he felt like one of few who actually want monogamy in a committed relationship.

On the other hand maybe there are more hopeless cases, like people I have run into who are very jealous types and would never allow their partners to stray but are constantly cheating by their own rules behind their partner's backs. What sort of relationship pairing would work best for them?

Well that's one of the old paradoxes I've run into, as well, and it's mostly about projection. A lot of people who are really hypervigilant about their partner being unfaithful, turns out they're actually cheaters. Guess in the back of their mind, the behavior is normalized or expected because they do it? I dunno. I also had a conversation with a man once who was actively cheating on his girlfriend (a touring musician who had another side chick in another state) and I was at that point in my own poly phase and was telling him about it. He was acting like man it would be such a wonderful relief to be able to be honest and not fear that it would destroy his relationship to do so, until I said, "well of course, you'd have to accept that if she was able to be OK with what you're doing...which you cannot know unless you're truthful and ask her...she might also want the same freedom that you're enjoying." And he said, "Yeah, I couldn't handle that."

Wow.

But as I believe somebody mentioned (or a few posters did)...most of the successful non monogamous relationships I know were like that more or less from the beginning. I even know some connections that are a mix, or "mono/poly"...monopoly lol, get it?... Where one partner is poly and the other isn't. And one is a very long lasting marriage. But the important thing is that it isn't because the polyamorous one set the terms. It was because they both said, "this is what I need, are you OK with it?" and they both legitimately were ok with it. She only wants one partner, and is fine with him having other partners. He wants multiple partners and is fine with her only wanting one (him.) But they talked it through and made these choices from a place of what they each truly wanted and was truly OK with. It isn't so much a matter of "fair is fair" so much as it is, everyone is getting what they want.

So could the person in your example find a relationship that works? Well, they'd have to start being a lot more honest than they're used to being. They have to hope that their partner is being genuine and honest with them, too. And most of all, they'd need to accept that they can't control another person, they can only control themselves. So the wife who is happy with just her husband might one day find her needs have changed, and she'll need to be honest with him if they do. And if he cannot be at peace with her choices, then he is free to exit the relationship. Rather than right and wrong in this, it's just compatible or not.

But I also speak from a place of having an abuser use the concept of morality to mean, "automatic enforcement of whatever I prefer and utter disregard of your feelings because I'm right and you're wrong, it will be presumed, always" and I admit, I carry that with me both in terms of what I can't deal with in relationships and my opinions on subjects like this.

Originally Posted by Toxic Waltz

Yikes. I would think that to be blatantly disrespectful behavior even if the couple did have some sort of arrangement. I'd think there would still be an expectation of discretion and I don't see where that sort of flaunting would ever be appropriate. What a jerk.

There is not always an expectation of discretion. Some people need that and some don't. Should be discussed, and again points to the "don't agree to something if you're really not comfortable with it, and if you find you're not as comfortable as you thought you'd be, then revisit and renegotiate."

Husband and I really are often fine with seeing one another behave flirtatiously, affectionately or intimately in some way (within our bounds) with others... Except when we're not. Which is pretty situational and often has to do with if for some reason we just don't like the other person. But the rare instances of running up against an unexpected discomfort have been really easy to resolve with talking our way through it. But there's another factor there, too. Any such things we might get up to are not some public display that could be easily misconstrued by onlookers and might be embarrassing for the other partner. This stuff is very compartmentalized at certain parties we go to where everyone pretty much knows us and knows the terms of our relationship. No one will assume anything, or think things about us. And we still adhere to the lines we've discussed and drawn.

[ChileSauceCritic]

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

Anyone is a cheater if they are violating the clearly discussed terms of their relationship, especially if they are hiding it or lying about it to their partner.

Part of the problem you've got here, I suspect, is that you want your desires and preferences to be the assumed default. You don't want to have to discuss it or find out if a woman you're dating is down with it, you just want it to materialize and to be the automatic setting for everyone, so that you can feel safe and never have to have a conversation.

You are correct, in my early dating life how I conducted dating was closer to the norm and as a result dating was much easier for me and less talking was needed, and in those few times when I did not see a future with a girl but still wanted to hang out with her and have sex, it was on me to let her know how I felt before the sex started because otherwise I would be in the wrong and I would be leading her on. today it's the opposite unless a relationship is discussed it is assumed that your just messing around in the absence of strings as a monogamous relationship is no longer the default.

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

If you never had a talk about where your lines are drawn and where her lines are drawn and negotiated where your relationship lines should be drawn, then no, I don't know how you can expect her to read your mind.

And that is the benefit of a social contract, we don't really have that anymore, before you only had to discuss things if what you wanted was outside of the norm, today there is no norm, now had I been born 20 year later this would not be as much an issue for me as I would never had gotten used to things working easily in my favor

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

That's not how any of this works anymore. True. The freedom for people to build more intentional relationships that reflect what they really want, instead of being frog marched into what is just assumed and expected by their societies, communities, families, cultures or religious traditions, DOES mean that people might have to use their words and make sure that both people are on the same page.

I agree, and sadly those conversations suck all the passion and romance out of the room, and makes the start of a potential relationship feel more like negotiating a union contract.

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

But "what I want should just be the rule for everyone, enforceable by social shunning, and if anyone is living life any other way I'm being victimized" is not really a good look.

here is the thing, I feel that everyone should live the way they want to live if they are honest from day one, but it sucks that people who hurt others get off scott free even if the rules were established.

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

And if the only way that you can feel secure with a woman is if no other men exist in her world at all, then you're really gonna have a hard time.

I have way more female friends than male friends, I don't get along with other guys for the most part, I view them as competition, that being said my interaction with my female friends is different when I'm in a relationship out of my respect for said relationship.

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

I mean right now, I don't even know where your line is drawn and you and I have had exchanges on these boards multiple times. I know that you want to feel like you're in "honeymoon phase" in an ongoing way and you're very easily threatened by your partner interacting with other men. I feel very safe to assume that this means you aren't OK with her going out for drinks with a male coworker (just the two of them) or having an ongoing one-on-one friendship with another man. But what if she goes out with a group of coworkers after hours and it's important to her career to be involved in this networking, and it's a mixed group with men? Or what if she wants to go out drinking with only female friends, will you assume they're all picking up guys? Maybe you don't want a partner who drinks at all, but is she allowed to go hiking? If another man on the trail says hello in a friendly way, is she supposed to bear mace him or what? Is she just not supposed to leave the house without you? Is she even allowed to have friends?

My rule of thumb is to behave like a vulcan when interacting with other females when I'm in a relationship, all my positive emotional energy is directed toward my girlfriend when I have one.
And yes I would like a partner who navigated the same way.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGQkWKsh6c8

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

I don't know any of this. But I have a strong feeling that your idea of acceptable monogamy would be unacceptable to someone like me, which is totally FINE, but the only question I have is, would you have warned me about any of it if you and I had matched on a dating site back in the day? Did you have it on your profile? Or do you just wait until your feelings get triggered and then have a tantrum about it?

Because a lot of dudes do the last one, and yeah, THAT is unacceptable. And will make it very challenging for you to form relationships.

Nope no tantrum, I would just figure your idea of monogamy was different than mine, I have know doubt that if we lived in the same city and were single at the same time we would be an 80+% match on OKcupid and I have no doubt the 20% we would not match on would all be the relationship questions we answered lol had I met you during our overlap in Ohio we would have been good friends

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

Believe it or not though, there are women who don't drink, don't network, don't feel much need for friendships, and prefer to just focus in one one relationship to the exclusion of everyone and everything else. Incidentally every single woman I've ever known who was like this, was a Scorpio, as much as I want to dismiss astrology as even being a thing, it seems oddly specific and strangely true. But they are also jealous and if you wrong them, you need to run before they kill you because they are terrifying. So there's that. Trade off? I dunno. Or maybe (probably) it is only coincidence that I've known several such people in my life.

But by the by, this kind of confusion between just...cheaters...and "ethical" non-monogamy, is why I think that it's good for people to engage with communities, read books, etc rather than just winging it. Because anyone who has ever actually spent time around legit poly people who are plugged in to these social groups, would know that you can be poly and still cheat in an utterly unacceptable way. And poly and swinging and such, does not in any way shape or form excuse cheating.

The difference is all in the honesty.

But real honesty also means that one cannot lie about being OK with it, when they're not. They also need to be honest with THEMSELVES.

And sadly there is no shortage of women who want to casually date me, it seems those and poly are 40% of the messages I get, the other 60% are women that either still have kids at home, let themselves go, raising their grandkids or have a demanding career that leaves very little free time(the ones that, kept inshape, have no kids at home, and have the time for a relationship are the ones that JUST want to casually date). it's a hit to my self esteem that I can't find a woman I'm mutually attracted to that wants to be my one and only. but all I can do is keep searching .

[M3 Mitch]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Bigger question is why some people see other adults having mutually consenting relationships or sex as "degenerates" because their relationships or sexual connections don't look like theirs.

I'll see you that, and raise you this - why can't normal adults realize that other normal adults have different values and desires, some want kids, some don't, some like the city, some like the country, some want to live alone in the wilderness. I mean I don't see myself as particularly virtuous, but I am a Libertarian, at the heart of which is the idea that if you want to do something I don't want to do, or even consider dangerous or stupid - if you are not hurting anybody else, and you are in particular not hurting me, it's none of my business.

[M3 Mitch]

Originally Posted by Mielinacea

I guess I was just primarily thinking about the children being involved into this.

Eh whatever, you’re right… Not my monkeys, not my circus.

Why do you automatically assume there are any children involved in this? There are child free people out there you know?

[Sonic_Spork]

@ChileSauceCritic - You make some fair points. And I feel I owe you an apology for having made some assumptions about your mindset and how it might manifest. I admit, my projection is showing. Also, as I say, "not a good look."

I hope you find what you are looking for!

[elnina]

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