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Insofar as practically anything CAN be a subculture if people decide to make it one, yes, it is a subculture. I mean, Grandma was part of the National Toothpick Holders Collectors Society. Are they a subculture? They have books, social media groups, a newsletter, and conventions. I'm sure that some members have formed lifelong friendships because of the hobby. We are social creatures, so this kind of thing happens.
And since I participated in one community online via a forum, and another community in person with a subset of members of my club in Colorado, and they have formed a set of basic understood norms and behaviors, terminology and jargon, ethics and beliefs, that are pretty distinct, I think that while many will just be out there doing whatever they do without contact with a group, there's a subculture out there if one wishes to be part of one.
Though they do indeed come from all walks of life.
I think that my issue there wasn't about being raised in a mainstream subculture that failed me, or in a subculture that did well by me... It was more granular than that. I was not part of any kind of community or "culture" really, growing up. I refer to my childhood as "feral." Just running around in the woods, didn't go to any church, didn't spend much time with other people, and a distinct lack of role models. And the way that my parents acted, the programming I got that I hold to this day is:
If I can see the reasoning behind a rule, I will follow and promote it with ENTHUSIASM. Rules that serve a purpose and make sense to me, I follow with greater adherence and more willingness than I think most "mainstream" people do. I am happy to sacrifice some personal benefit to follow a rule that keeps things orderly or prevents harm, or just...makes good sense. I don't cut in lines. I do everything I can to uphold agreements and keep my word. By bills and taxes are paid on time with meticulous precision, my house is clean, I don't drink or do drugs.
But if I view a rule as being malicious, capricious, without solid backing in logic or harm reduction or any sensible purpose, based just on moralistic judgment by one group whose beliefs are far from universal or pompous, sour faced, self righteous pettiness...or simply based on somebody's OPINIONS...? As someone raised by parents who did not punish me for doing actual wrong but only very inconsistently, for their own whims and emotions, I will utterly disregard anyone who tries to stand in authority that I don't believe they deserve, and any rule or judgment that I don't consider to be grounded in valid reasoning. People may, by all means, clutch at their opinions as though they have some kind of value. But no one can make me feel shame that I do not feel, or change the basic facts about what has worked for me and what hasn't, or why. Or what anything I've done was "all about" when my actual memories are a lot more solidly rooted in reality, than their fevered imaginings.
This, I figure, is pretty much what happens when one grows up in the absence of any kind of solid authority figures that they believe in or respect. I've never found any value in respecting authority for authority's sake. And what some people assume are natural consequences for stepping out of normative lines of behavior, have never really materialized for me. Turns out, the "rules" I disregard are actually quite easy to get away with breaking, with no consequences and only benefits. Which only reinforces to me that they are arbitrary and had no value to begin with.
But if you hadn't been raised "feral" and if your first marriage wasn't such a trainwreck, would you have turned out the way you did? I think that there is a certain path dependency that generally occurs that most of us follow (I know I did) where you will go along with a given life trajectory until you have some reason to take the time to really question it. I probably would have never became a religious fundamentalist if my older brother wasn't seriouslly mentally ill and if there wasn't the substance abuse issues with my older brothers (which made drawing real strict boundaries seem appealing). In high school, I really wasn't especially preoccupied with religion. I also probably would have stayed a religious fundamentalist if my then girlfriend didn't sleep with her minister. I think a lot of our life choices go unexamined because we are preoccupied with day to day problems until some set of events causes us to rethink them.
But if you hadn't been raised "feral" and if your first marriage wasn't such a trainwreck, would you have turned out the way you did? I think that there is a certain path dependency that generally occurs that most of us follow (I know I did) where you will go along with a given life trajectory until you have some reason to take the time to really question it. I probably would have never became a religious fundamentalist if my older brother wasn't seriouslly mentally ill and if there wasn't the substance abuse issues with my older brothers (which made drawing real strict boundaries seem appealing). In high school, I really wasn't especially preoccupied with religion. I also probably would have stayed a religious fundamentalist if my then girlfriend didn't sleep with her minister. I think a lot of our life choices go unexamined because we are preoccupied with day to day problems until some set of events causes us to rethink them.
If I had been raised differently I certainly would be a different person in a lot of ways, but I don't have much to complain about there. I'm happy with myself as I am. The marriage, well... Sometimes I wonder how my life might have gone if that had never happened, sure, but to be honest I can't even say with total surety that I regret it. The alternative paths I could have taken, given my toolset at that point, might have been better but it sure could have been worse. We don't get to know such things. I even question the usage of the word "trainwreck" a bit although at the end it was. I find it remarkable at times how much we were able to actually make it work, for how long, considering. My ex agrees with me on that point. As a team in life, the two of us accomplished a lot before it all went sideways.
Life is complicated and so are people.
I was telling my Colorado friends a while ago that it feels like a very funny place to be sometimes, I don't feel anywhere near as monogamous as the "mainstream" monogamous people I know, but I'm definitely not as polyamorous as the polyamorists I know, either. But I guess this should not be a new feeling for me, since I rarely find a label that really sticks.
But anyways. I stand by my assertion that non-monogamy (of any kind) is not encroaching on monogamy or the future of relationships or taking over or becoming the norm. It's just not. It's probably less than 1% even trying to do it. And it is no solution at all for a troubled monogamous relationship nor for failure to do well in monogamous relationships. That should never be why one tries to do it, and it isn't why I did it. Because if nothing else, if you lack the skills to successfully have a healthy monogamous relationship, you sure as heck won't do better with multiple relationships.
But anyways. I stand by my assertion that non-monogamy (of any kind) is not encroaching on monogamy or the future of relationships or taking over or becoming the norm. It's just not. It's probably less than 1% even trying to do it. And it is no solution at all for a troubled monogamous relationship nor for failure to do well in monogamous relationships. That should never be why one tries to do it, and it isn't why I did it. Because if nothing else, if you lack the skills to successfully have a healthy monogamous relationship, you sure as heck won't do better with multiple relationships.
oh but in a way it is, while it has not taken over like the "right wing religious types" feared acceptance of alternate lifestyles has morphed what is considered monogamy into more of a spectrum, as a result many if not most people who view themselves as monogamous actually practice what I call "Monogamy Lite" where they feel they are being faithful even doing everything short of penetration with someone other than their partner, and if they are called out on it they accuse their partner of being possessive lol
behavior that years ago would have gotten you socially shunned, male of female(overly flirty men weren't trusted by the other men, overly flirty women weren't trusted be other women or men for that matter except as someone to lay.
All this sucks for those of us that value monogamy and wish to find a lifelong partner that behaves in a way that leaves no room for doubt instead so one can finally relax and enjoy the relationship instead of always having to guess and stress every time there is a change in his/her pattern.
People who are prone to "it's not cheating if X doesn't happen" have been prevalent forever, I've got oodles of kids/nieces/nephews/friends in their 30s and none of them consider heavy petting or ANYTHING else part of monogamy.
The only real difference I see in the younger generations now, is no hurry to get married, more open about sexuality, and more accepting of LGBTQ+, and things like a thruple. Also a freedom to define their own "relationship", so, if they wanted an open type relationship, they would be clear on that. A live and let live approach.
The shift seems less than what happened in the 60s, but definitely more openness.
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oh but in a way it is, while it has not taken over like the "right wing religious types" feared acceptance of alternate lifestyles has morphed what is considered monogamy into more of a spectrum, as a result many if not most people who view themselves as monogamous actually practice what I call "Monogamy Lite" where they feel they are being faithful even doing everything short of penetration with someone other than their partner, and if they are called out on it they accuse their partner of being possessive lol
behavior that years ago would have gotten you socially shunned, male of female(overly flirty men weren't trusted by the other men, overly flirty women weren't trusted be other women or men for that matter except as someone to lay.
All this sucks for those of us that value monogamy and wish to find a lifelong partner that behaves in a way that leaves no room for doubt instead so one can finally relax and enjoy the relationship instead of always having to guess and stress every time there is a change in his/her pattern.
There were people who stressed and guessed and worried constantly LONG before the modern acceptance of non-monogamy.
No one can control another person. No one has a right to do so, and no one should really be trying to do that. It's just a matter of negotiation.
If one person feels that it is fine to do "anything up to penetration" or WHATEVER with others, and their partner doesn't like it, then the partner needs to accept that they have different values on what they want in relationships, it is a serious breach of compatibility, and they need to exercise their option to WALK AWAY. And hell, maybe that person IS being possessive, but so what? Some people are. They should find each other and have relationships together. Where they both enjoy the exclusivity of their mutual possessiveness for one another as a feature of their connection, and no one needs to "call out" anyone.
Speaking of which. What you're describing still doesn't sound like "ethical non monogamy" in which instance both people would have talked this out BEFORE whatever other interaction happened. There'd be no "calling out" because they'd have an understanding before it even happened and honesty about the whole situation. If that is lacking, then it's just cheating. And cheating has ALWAYS happened. Cheaters never needed any kind of "permission" to cheat. They did it when there were serious social consequences, they did it before anyone was openly talking about non-monogamy. If anything, having polyamory (honest poly) as an option, should in theory mean that those who know they aren't monogamous could be open about it so that someone like you doesn't end up dating one who is too ashamed to tell you up front.
There are plenty of men and women in this world who do not believe that intimacy, especially physical intimacy, with others outside of a monogamous relationship is OK. Lots. The majority, by far.
You could apply this rationale to almost any behavior, you know. Lots of men smoke weed. I did not want that in a partner, and my partner doesn't smoke weed. Should I be furious that it's legal and that other people are doing it, because how do I know my partner won't start one day? Should I lose sleep over that? No... Lots of folks are vegan these days, too, but the steakhouse restaurants aren't going out of business. Hypervigilance and an inability to trust might just be a ~you~ problem, at some point.
There were people who stressed and guessed and worried constantly LONG before the modern acceptance of non-monogamy.
No one can control another person. No one has a right to do so, and no one should really be trying to do that. It's just a matter of negotiation.
If one person feels that it is fine to do "anything up to penetration" or WHATEVER with others, and their partner doesn't like it, then the partner needs to accept that they have different values on what they want in relationships, it is a serious breach of compatibility, and they need to exercise their option to WALK AWAY. And hell, maybe that person IS being possessive, but so what? Some people are. They should find each other and have relationships together. Where they both enjoy the exclusivity of their mutual possessiveness for one another as a feature of their connection, and no one needs to "call out" anyone.
Speaking of which. What you're describing still doesn't sound like "ethical non monogamy" in which instance both people would have talked this out BEFORE whatever other interaction happened. There'd be no "calling out" because they'd have an understanding before it even happened and honesty about the whole situation. If that is lacking, then it's just cheating. And cheating has ALWAYS happened. Cheaters never needed any kind of "permission" to cheat. They did it when there were serious social consequences, they did it before anyone was openly talking about non-monogamy. If anything, having polyamory (honest poly) as an option, should in theory mean that those who know they aren't monogamous could be open about it so that someone like you doesn't end up dating one who is too ashamed to tell you up front.
There are plenty of men and women in this world who do not believe that intimacy, especially physical intimacy, with others outside of a monogamous relationship is OK. Lots. The majority, by far.
You could apply this rationale to almost any behavior, you know. Lots of men smoke weed. I did not want that in a partner, and my partner doesn't smoke weed. Should I be furious that it's legal and that other people are doing it, because how do I know my partner won't start one day? Should I lose sleep over that? No... Lots of folks are vegan these days, too, but the steakhouse restaurants aren't going out of business. Hypervigilance and an inability to trust might just be a ~you~ problem, at some point.
Maybe what I am noticing is group expectations have shifted, when I say I seek a monogamous partner, that person who "behaves" in a non monogamous manner feels she is not a cheater because she does not have sex with others, so she feels we are on the same page even though I feel cheating starts long before the actual sex starts. to me it starts when you allow yourself into situations that are conducive to cheating. and yes there have always been cheaters, but at least in the past they were looked down upon and there were real consequences to their betrayal so to many or most it was not worth the risk.
Maybe what I am noticing is group expectations have shifted, when I say I seek a monogamous partner, that person who "behaves" in a non monogamous manner feels she is not a cheater because she does not have sex with others, so she feels we are on the same page even though I feel cheating starts long before the actual sex starts. to me it starts when you allow yourself into situations that are conducive to cheating. and yes there have always been cheaters, but at least in the past they were looked down upon and there were real consequences to their betrayal so to many or most it was not worth the risk.
Years back, my husband worked with this guy who we kind of became friends with. The guy (and his wife) were younger than us, and the husband was fit, still had a headful of hair, and in general, was a nice looking man. And for that matter, his wife was an attractive blond. He and my husband had Harley's, and we would (all 4 of us) would go on bike rides, rat runs, etc.
One time, it was the wife's birthday, and they got a party bus and invited a bunch of friends, and we hit up the local wineries. The husband was particularly 'attentive' to one of the female friends on the party bus, and the woman was particularly receptive to the attention. He'd invite her to sit in his lap, and she would happily do so. He'd grab at her and 'accidentally' brush her boob...but it's obvious he meant to do exactly that. Lots of flirty behavior...and his wife would be right there, to see all of it. His wife told me several times that day that she liked MY husband and I because we were "no-drama" type people. At one of the wineries, her husband "motorboated" this friend he'd been flirting with all afternoon...and his wife was just...right there to see it. MY heart was breaking for her. I would've been mortified if my husband behaved in a similar manner.
Later on at work, my husband was asking him about the flirty stuff, and the motorboating, and wasn't his wife upset by it all, etc.
The husband said that he wasn't cheating, and wouldn't cheat on his wife. His behavior was just playing around, and his wife understood that.
Well, a year or so later, the husband had a job opportunity back in their home state (I think it was one of the Carolinas) and they moved. A little while later, my husband finds the other husband on Facebook, and lo and behold, he and his wife were divorced. My husband and I were not shocked.
Maybe what I am noticing is group expectations have shifted, when I say I seek a monogamous partner, that person who "behaves" in a non monogamous manner feels she is not a cheater because she does not have sex with others, so she feels we are on the same page even though I feel cheating starts long before the actual sex starts. to me it starts when you allow yourself into situations that are conducive to cheating. and yes there have always been cheaters, but at least in the past they were looked down upon and there were real consequences to their betrayal so to many or most it was not worth the risk.
Anyone is a cheater if they are violating the clearly discussed terms of their relationship, especially if they are hiding it or lying about it to their partner.
Part of the problem you've got here, I suspect, is that you want your desires and preferences to be the assumed default. You don't want to have to discuss it or find out if a woman you're dating is down with it, you just want it to materialize and to be the automatic setting for everyone, so that you can feel safe and never have to have a conversation.
If you never had a talk about where your lines are drawn and where her lines are drawn and negotiated where your relationship lines should be drawn, then no, I don't know how you can expect her to read your mind.
That's not how any of this works anymore. True. The freedom for people to build more intentional relationships that reflect what they really want, instead of being frog marched into what is just assumed and expected by their societies, communities, families, cultures or religious traditions, DOES mean that people might have to use their words and make sure that both people are on the same page.
But "what I want should just be the rule for everyone, enforceable by social shunning, and if anyone is living life any other way I'm being victimized" is not really a good look.
And if the only way that you can feel secure with a woman is if no other men exist in her world at all, then you're really gonna have a hard time.
I mean right now, I don't even know where your line is drawn and you and I have had exchanges on these boards multiple times. I know that you want to feel like you're in "honeymoon phase" in an ongoing way and you're very easily threatened by your partner interacting with other men. I feel very safe to assume that this means you aren't OK with her going out for drinks with a male coworker (just the two of them) or having an ongoing one-on-one friendship with another man. But what if she goes out with a group of coworkers after hours and it's important to her career to be involved in this networking, and it's a mixed group with men? Or what if she wants to go out drinking with only female friends, will you assume they're all picking up guys? Maybe you don't want a partner who drinks at all, but is she allowed to go hiking? If another man on the trail says hello in a friendly way, is she supposed to bear mace him or what? Is she just not supposed to leave the house without you? Is she even allowed to have friends?
I don't know any of this. But I have a strong feeling that your idea of acceptable monogamy would be unacceptable to someone like me, which is totally FINE, but the only question I have is, would you have warned me about any of it if you and I had matched on a dating site back in the day? Did you have it on your profile? Or do you just wait until your feelings get triggered and then have a tantrum about it?
Because a lot of dudes do the last one, and yeah, THAT is unacceptable. And will make it very challenging for you to form relationships.
Believe it or not though, there are women who don't drink, don't network, don't feel much need for friendships, and prefer to just focus in one one relationship to the exclusion of everyone and everything else. Incidentally every single woman I've ever known who was like this, was a Scorpio, as much as I want to dismiss astrology as even being a thing, it seems oddly specific and strangely true. But they are also jealous and if you wrong them, you need to run before they kill you because they are terrifying. So there's that. Trade off? I dunno. Or maybe (probably) it is only coincidence that I've known several such people in my life.
But by the by, this kind of confusion between just...cheaters...and "ethical" non-monogamy, is why I think that it's good for people to engage with communities, read books, etc rather than just winging it. Because anyone who has ever actually spent time around legit poly people who are plugged in to these social groups, would know that you can be poly and still cheat in an utterly unacceptable way. And poly and swinging and such, does not in any way shape or form excuse cheating.
The difference is all in the honesty.
But real honesty also means that one cannot lie about being OK with it, when they're not. They also need to be honest with THEMSELVES.
I agree with Sonic. The key is communication and defining boundaries upfront before they are broken.
At least in my experience at least the conversations about monogamy are now coming up earlier. My last boyfriend made it clear that he wanted to be monogamous before we even went on our first date. Granted he almost blocked me when I didn't respond to that message right away. I was grocery shopping and should have taken that as a sign to consider moving on because he didn't end up holding to his own rules in the relationship anyway. I also recently even had a friend who revealed that he felt out of place because he felt like one of few who actually want monogamy in a committed relationship.
On the other hand maybe there are more hopeless cases, like people I have run into who are very jealous types and would never allow their partners to stray but are constantly cheating by their own rules behind their partner's backs. What sort of relationship pairing would work best for them?
Years back, my husband worked with this guy who we kind of became friends with. The guy (and his wife) were younger than us, and the husband was fit, still had a headful of hair, and in general, was a nice looking man. And for that matter, his wife was an attractive blond. He and my husband had Harley's, and we would (all 4 of us) would go on bike rides, rat runs, etc.
One time, it was the wife's birthday, and they got a party bus and invited a bunch of friends, and we hit up the local wineries. The husband was particularly 'attentive' to one of the female friends on the party bus, and the woman was particularly receptive to the attention. He'd invite her to sit in his lap, and she would happily do so. He'd grab at her and 'accidentally' brush her boob...but it's obvious he meant to do exactly that. Lots of flirty behavior...and his wife would be right there, to see all of it. His wife told me several times that day that she liked MY husband and I because we were "no-drama" type people. At one of the wineries, her husband "motorboated" this friend he'd been flirting with all afternoon...and his wife was just...right there to see it. MY heart was breaking for her. I would've been mortified if my husband behaved in a similar manner.
Later on at work, my husband was asking him about the flirty stuff, and the motorboating, and wasn't his wife upset by it all, etc.
The husband said that he wasn't cheating, and wouldn't cheat on his wife. His behavior was just playing around, and his wife understood that.
Well, a year or so later, the husband had a job opportunity back in their home state (I think it was one of the Carolinas) and they moved. A little while later, my husband finds the other husband on Facebook, and lo and behold, he and his wife were divorced. My husband and I were not shocked.
Yikes. I would think that to be blatantly disrespectful behavior even if the couple did have some sort of arrangement. I'd think there would still be an expectation of discretion and I don't see where that sort of flaunting would ever be appropriate. What a jerk.
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