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You are asking for a lot right there. Most guys are adept at conversing in football, beer, and one other item according to region. What you are looking for is a Cambridge, Oxford, Ivy League type of guy. Well, Cambridge and Oxford aren't even in the US, so now you are down to just eight schools.
Actually, she is describing large numbers of people of both sexes. Good listeners are the exception.
And a lot of people prefer fun conversations over deep philosophical ones.
It doesn't occur to them to let the woman fill the empty spaces in the convo? Or to ask the woman some simple questions about her interests or where she's from, as a way to "fill the spaces"? Where are these guys' fathers? Don't dads talk to their teen sons about being polite to women, how to have a conversation, etc.?
From what I've read here on C-D, some women are understanding, and give the motor-mouth guys a second chance (agreeing to a second date), while others don't. I don't have patience with motor-mouth guys. I have 2 brothers who are that way, so I burn out on that behavior very quickly.
I would think, that if a guy has a genuine interest in a woman, it would come naturally to want to know more about her. If he chatters through the entire date, he's defeated the purpose of the occasion. He hasn't learned anything about her. She's still a stranger to him. And there's at least a 50/50 chance, if not more like 70/30, he'll never see her again and she'll forever remain a stranger.
I would say young men born after say 1965 are fairly often a product of modern divorce culture. Fathers are often fairly estranged from their family when custody is given to mom (and usually it was given to mom after divorce) at least while I was growing up. Father's post sexual revolution also didn't know what to tell their sons. In high school, my friend Dave talked about that when his dad found out that he was going to Sr Prom with this girl we know from school. His dad didn't really say anything, but just gave him some condoms. My friend Dave was dumbfounded. Remember parents from this generation basically ignored whatever messaging their own parents likely gave them because of the sexual revolution and really had no idea what to tell their kids because they weren't that sure what was or wasn't a good idea themselves. Fathers weren't real confident about what to tell their sons, so they often didn't say anything. Between divorce and the sexual revolution, lots of young men were raised pretty feral.
There was more instruction to young men about how to treat women in certain religious venues, but again that depended on both the specific Church and religion involved but also if the young men were both raised in a faith tradition and whether the young man were interested enough in that to participate in it. Honestly the instruction I found in church about how to run a relationship, what to look for in women and and even about how to define a relationship in church was all very practical. My own parents were also actually both really good about talking to me about these types of issues though too. Sex education in public schools in California mentioned condoms, menstration and changing bodies through puberty but nothing real practical about dealing with women as actual people.
But in general, I would say most guys probably got more dating advice from other guys their age than from any type of male role model.
I would say young men born after say 1965 are fairly often a product of modern divorce culture. Fathers are often fairly estranged from their family when custody is given to mom (and usually it was given to mom after divorce) at least while I was growing up. Father's post sexual revolution also didn't know what to tell their sons. In high school, my friend Dave talked about that when his dad found out that he was going to Sr Prom with this girl we know from school. His dad didn't really say anything, but just gave him some condoms. My friend Dave was dumbfounded. Remember parents from this generation basically ignored whatever messaging their own parents likely gave them because of the sexual revolution and really had no idea what to tell their kids because they weren't that sure what was or wasn't a good idea themselves. Fathers weren't real confident about what to tell their sons, so they often didn't say anything. Between divorce and the sexual revolution, lots of young men were raised pretty feral.
There was more instruction to young men about how to treat women in certain religious venues, but again that depended on both the specific Church and religion involved but also if the young men were both raised in a faith tradition and whether the young man were interested enough in that to participate in it. Honestly the instruction I found in church about how to run a relationship, what to look for in women and and even about how to define a relationship in church was all very practical. My own parents were also actually both really good about talking to me about these types of issues though too. Sex education in public schools in California mentioned condoms, menstration and changing bodies through puberty but nothing real practical about dealing with women as actual people.
But in general, I would say most guys probably got more dating advice from other guys their age than from any type of male role model.
With regards to relationships I can only share what I've experienced.
I received no dating advice and can still remember my first date. At a pizza shop. A kid working made quip about my face looking like a pizza. My date chuckled. My teen years were spent on the rejection end of dates. I wasn't particularly attractive and had little self confidence. Was hurt numerous times.
When I turned 21 I came into my own. My skin cleared up, I got a sun tan and grew my hair out. I was the same guy but the young ladies were now looking my way. Earlier in this thread I mentioned a p/t job and a co-worker who told me she was busy only to find out later she went out with another co-worker. This girl and I had mutual friends and when we met again a few years later she was oh so interested in chatting. I didn't give her the time of day.
So lesson one learned: Girls like a nice guy but being considered attractive gets the ball rolling.
Lesson two: By age 30 I was single and still dating. But I had developed a drinking problem. Women don't like a drunk.
Lesson three: By age 35 I was sober but wasn't earning much money. Gotta be able to do more than just make ends meet.
Lesson four: By age 40 I had a good job and had started buying investment property. Women like a man with a plan.
Got married at the age of 38. Wife was 29 at the time. Still married and both retired.
I've made more than my share of mistakes over the years but I did marry well.
Wife isn't perfect and neither am I. But we're happy enough.
You are asking for a lot right there. Most guys are adept at conversing in football, beer, and one other item according to region. What you are looking for is a Cambridge, Oxford, Ivy League type of guy. Well, Cambridge and Oxford aren't even in the US, so now you are down to just eight schools.
Well, if we're talking college-age, whatever happened to asking a woman "what's your major"? It's a start.How hard is that? In post-college age, it could be "what field are you in", followed by "oh, why did you choose that" or "what interests you about that?" Or "are you from around here, or are you a transplant?" Anything, just to get the ball rolling! You'd think it was rocket science, the way guys seem to struggle with it. Or are oblivious to the whole issue! Though with OLD, some of that preliminary info is already known by both sides, but that should make it easier, not harder.
Mothers used to tell their daughters (I don't know if they still do that in the new millennium) regarding keeping a conversation going, "ask him about himself". I can't fathom why moms or dads didn't tell their sons the same thing.
With regards to relationships I can only share what I've experienced.
I received no dating advice and can still remember my first date. At a pizza shop. A kid working made quip about my face looking like a pizza. My date chuckled. My teen years were spent on the rejection end of dates. I wasn't particularly attractive and had little self confidence. Was hurt numerous times.
When I turned 21 I came into my own. My skin cleared up, I got a sun tan and grew my hair out. I was the same guy but the young ladies were now looking my way. Earlier in this thread I mentioned a p/t job and a co-worker who told me she was busy only to find out later she went out with another co-worker. This girl and I had mutual friends and when we met again a few years later she was oh so interested in chatting. I didn't give her the time of day.
So lesson one learned: Girls like a nice guy but being considered attractive gets the ball rolling.
Lesson two: By age 30 I was single and still dating. But I had developed a drinking problem. Women don't like a drunk.
Lesson three: By age 35 I was sober but wasn't earning much money. Gotta be able to do more than just make ends meet.
Lesson four: By age 40 I had a good job and had started buying investment property. Women like a man with a plan.
Got married at the age of 38. Wife was 29 at the time. Still married and both retired.
I've made more than my share of mistakes over the years but I did marry well.
Wife isn't perfect and neither am I. But we're happy enough.
Awww, that's sweet! Everyone loves a story with a happy ending, no? Thanks for sharing.
It is curious that the so called “weaker†sex has to make sure not to hurt the feelings of the “stronger†sex…
.
OR, sometimes it's not about their feelings. Sometimes, as I stated, it's for my own safety. I have had to deal with a few, (not a lot, thankfully) that got angry at being turned down. I don't appreciate being yelled at, called every name in the book, insinuations that I do things with everybody, etc. It is scary when a man you don't know is towering over you in anger, spitting all of that at you when you were just standing at the bus stop, waiting for the bus and minding your own business. (Actual scene during one of these special encounters.)
That is why I do it. I don't care if more were decent enough to just walk away, I'm not taking the chance of dealing with another one of the 'How dare you reject me!' types.
If your ego is so delicate and fragile, that's on you, not me, and you don't get to demand an explanation, you don't get to blame it on me, you don't get to assume jack spit about me. The answer is no, go.away.
I realize that not all women that I am interested in are going to be interested in me. But why do women instead of simply saying that they just aren't interested invent a phantom boyfriend and use the phantom boyfriend as the pretext for not wanting to date me? This just strikes me as a completely unnecessary lie, but is that actually the case? Is it an unneccessay lie or is there something here that I am missing? What problems is this lie trying to solve for women?
Why do you think they don't have boyfriends? That's sort of insulting to them, to think they are lying and that they are so undesirable that they can't possibly have boyfriends. Then again, maybe they said no because you sort of insult them in some way?
Look, if you are interested in them, then other men are, too. Which means they likely do have boyfriends. BFs come and go frequently, depending on their age.
If you get a "no" frequently, you're asking the wrong sort of woman out. Look for women who you know will probably say yes. More your type. The ones who do the sorts of activities you like, who are attractive to the level that you are attractive to the opposite sex in some way (not necessarily just looks).
So its not most men, but is it fair to say that there is a fairly substantial number of men that give you (and likely other women) this type of impression and so you have to spend a bunch of time trying to guard against this. I imagine that is really frustrating.
I could also see then why a lot of women might also want to know a guy for period time first before actually entering into dating. This is probably another reason that online dating likely seems less appealing for women despite the much more favorable gender ratio online for women. Women are getting a lot of attention online, but not really the right type of attention for the right types of reasons from a lot of guys, so it is more of a why bother?
If I focus only on interactions in person with men, then I would tell you that this thing of men being obviously not interested in me as a PERSON but only as a possible sex partner, or not wanting to get to know me... There was more of that with younger men, when I was a younger woman. And, too, it was among the things I overheard older teenage boys talking about on the school bus when I was a high school freshman, and I was just exiting the "omg hit with the ugly stick" phase of puberty and becoming an attractive young teen, capable of turning heads (that happened the summer before my freshman year after total hell in jr. high.) So there I was with this newfound power and a deep desire to be seen and liked after having been hated and scorned, painfully, for years. Boys were talking, and I was listening. What did they want? How did they think? It was very confusing, because apparently girls that gave them sexual interaction got put down, but girls that DIDN'T were also put down.
And the only boys I was encountering (and in fact this theme still persists at times with grown men) who did seem willing and able to have a "deeper conversation"...were in fact wanting emotional support and free therapy. Soooooo many dudes latch onto girls/women for this kind of thing. I honestly think that guys are hot for a bit of female kindness and a feeling of acceptance, at least as much or more, than they are for sex. Hell, maybe we all want that. But some guys seem starved for it. And the older I get and they get, the less I am seeing of the "I just want to get laid" crowd...and maybe, too, as times have changed along with me getting older, people have less need to play elaborate games and tricks to get sex if that's all they want. After all, some of us women are willing to engage in casual sex if the timing and everything lines up right.
But even the desire for emotional support, kindness, acceptance...can come off like a one way demand for emotional LABOR if they are not willing to also listen with interest to the things we have to say, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelato
I would say young men born after say 1965 are fairly often a product of modern divorce culture. Fathers are often fairly estranged from their family when custody is given to mom (and usually it was given to mom after divorce) at least while I was growing up. Father's post sexual revolution also didn't know what to tell their sons. In high school, my friend Dave talked about that when his dad found out that he was going to Sr Prom with this girl we know from school. His dad didn't really say anything, but just gave him some condoms. My friend Dave was dumbfounded. Remember parents from this generation basically ignored whatever messaging their own parents likely gave them because of the sexual revolution and really had no idea what to tell their kids because they weren't that sure what was or wasn't a good idea themselves. Fathers weren't real confident about what to tell their sons, so they often didn't say anything. Between divorce and the sexual revolution, lots of young men were raised pretty feral.
There was more instruction to young men about how to treat women in certain religious venues, but again that depended on both the specific Church and religion involved but also if the young men were both raised in a faith tradition and whether the young man were interested enough in that to participate in it. Honestly the instruction I found in church about how to run a relationship, what to look for in women and and even about how to define a relationship in church was all very practical. My own parents were also actually both really good about talking to me about these types of issues though too. Sex education in public schools in California mentioned condoms, menstration and changing bodies through puberty but nothing real practical about dealing with women as actual people.
But in general, I would say most guys probably got more dating advice from other guys their age than from any type of male role model.
I actually believe that a much bigger percentage of the problem (for those who have a problem) is related to the proliferation of the internet. Because you really cannot properly learn to socialize with other human beings, if you never practice it face to face. So along with this situation of lots of divorce in our society, we have, too, the remaining parent is often working hard to make ends meet, there may be stepparents but they tend to be less invested/involved (at best) and because of the advances in technology and the capitalism-driven notion that kids are to be catered to rather than expected to provide value to the family unit...we have lots and lots of kids growing up parked in front of glowing screens.
This was even starting to take off in my generation, but back then most people didn't have cable and programming that was of interest to kids wasn't on all day every day. I had Saturday morning cartoons. Later, some "after school" shows. But most of the time, TV had boring stuff like news and soap operas. Game shows were tolerable on a day I was home sick or when school was closed for snow. But the summers I spent running around out in the world. I may not have had friends my age, but I got on famously with adults. And the very instant I cleared the gauntlet of puberty, as soon as I had the chance, I started working those social skills which now are finely tuned and well developed. Also, before I ever started doing that, I read hundreds of books.
Now, though? Kids are parked in front of TV with all day, all night cartoons. Endless streaming kids' content. Must have a tablet to play on everywhere they go. As teens, it's video games and more video games. We have adults who constantly ask, "how do you make or keep friends as an adult, I can't figure it out?" Well...you have to go to where the humans are, and interact with them. Repeatedly, and with patience, because people don't necessarily warm to you or trust you in one second upon seeing your face. And OLD? OLD brings the worst of the nonsense I heard from stupid boys on the bus in high school and blends it with internet troll culture, and at best if you aren't dealing with that, you're dealing with people (men and women both) who have already worked out this whole picture of who and what they want, and stand there saying if you don't fit precisely this entire preconceived fantasy they have in mind, don't bother. /shrug...like...ok, I wont?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow
OR, sometimes it's not about their feelings. Sometimes, as I stated, it's for my own safety. I have had to deal with a few, (not a lot, thankfully) that got angry at being turned down. I don't appreciate being yelled at, called every name in the book, insinuations that I do things with everybody, etc. It is scary when a man you don't know is towering over you in anger, spitting all of that at you when you were just standing at the bus stop, waiting for the bus and minding your own business. (Actual scene during one of these special encounters.)
That is why I do it. I don't care if more were decent enough to just walk away, I'm not taking the chance of dealing with another one of the 'How dare you reject me!' types.
If your ego is so delicate and fragile, that's on you, not me, and you don't get to demand an explanation, you don't get to blame it on me, you don't get to assume jack spit about me. The answer is no, go.away.
You say it's not about their feelings, but you do know that anger is a "feeling" right?
Like to me, even the fear that a man might become dangerous in his anger... I see it as a toddler throwing a tantrum. Men who can't control their tempers, are to me precisely that. People who never learned how to manage their feelings, just like tiny children only with less of an excuse.
Even when I am not scared of them, I can't respect that kind of behavior.
I would say young men born after say 1965 are fairly often a product of modern divorce culture. Fathers are often fairly estranged from their family when custody is given to mom (and usually it was given to mom after divorce) at least while I was growing up. Father's post sexual revolution also didn't know what to tell their sons. In high school, my friend Dave talked about that when his dad found out that he was going to Sr Prom with this girl we know from school. His dad didn't really say anything, but just gave him some condoms. My friend Dave was dumbfounded. Remember parents from this generation basically ignored whatever messaging their own parents likely gave them because of the sexual revolution and really had no idea what to tell their kids because they weren't that sure what was or wasn't a good idea themselves. Fathers weren't real confident about what to tell their sons, so they often didn't say anything. Between divorce and the sexual revolution, lots of young men were raised pretty feral.
There was more instruction to young men about how to treat women in certain religious venues, but again that depended on both the specific Church and religion involved but also if the young men were both raised in a faith tradition and whether the young man were interested enough in that to participate in it. Honestly the instruction I found in church about how to run a relationship, what to look for in women and and even about how to define a relationship in church was all very practical. My own parents were also actually both really good about talking to me about these types of issues though too. Sex education in public schools in California mentioned condoms, menstration and changing bodies through puberty but nothing real practical about dealing with women as actual people.
But in general, I would say most guys probably got more dating advice from other guys their age than from any type of male role model.
I would suspect that has always been the case. The Silent Generation generally didn't talk a lot about that stuff. I actually got more useful advice from a female friend than anyone else.
If I focus only on interactions in person with men, then I would tell you that this thing of men being obviously not interested in me as a PERSON but only as a possible sex partner, or not wanting to get to know me... There was more of that with younger men, when I was a younger woman. And, too, it was among the things I overheard older teenage boys talking about on the school bus when I was a high school freshman, and I was just exiting the "omg hit with the ugly stick" phase of puberty and becoming an attractive young teen, capable of turning heads (that happened the summer before my freshman year after total hell in jr. high.) So there I was with this newfound power and a deep desire to be seen and liked after having been hated and scorned, painfully, for years. Boys were talking, and I was listening. What did they want? How did they think? It was very confusing, because apparently girls that gave them sexual interaction got put down, but girls that DIDN'T were also put down.
And the only boys I was encountering (and in fact this theme still persists at times with grown men) who did seem willing and able to have a "deeper conversation"...were in fact wanting emotional support and free therapy. Soooooo many dudes latch onto girls/women for this kind of thing. I honestly think that guys are hot for a bit of female kindness and a feeling of acceptance, at least as much or more, than they are for sex. Hell, maybe we all want that. But some guys seem starved for it. And the older I get and they get, the less I am seeing of the "I just want to get laid" crowd...and maybe, too, as times have changed along with me getting older, people have less need to play elaborate games and tricks to get sex if that's all they want. After all, some of us women are willing to engage in casual sex if the timing and everything lines up right.
But even the desire for emotional support, kindness, acceptance...can come off like a one way demand for emotional LABOR if they are not willing to also listen with interest to the things we have to say, too.
FWIW, you are also uncanningly good at the free therapy. You have this unusually high verbal fluency which makes you exceedingly adept at putting into words ideas and thoughts that other people have trouble articulating. I am not saying that your broader point isn't true, but with you specifically, why people to turn to you, more often than most, is that you are really good at this and that is a factor here as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
I actually believe that a much bigger percentage of the problem (for those who have a problem) is related to the proliferation of the internet. Because you really cannot properly learn to socialize with other human beings, if you never practice it face to face. So along with this situation of lots of divorce in our society, we have, too, the remaining parent is often working hard to make ends meet, there may be stepparents but they tend to be less invested/involved (at best) and because of the advances in technology and the capitalism-driven notion that kids are to be catered to rather than expected to provide value to the family unit...we have lots and lots of kids growing up parked in front of glowing screens.
This was even starting to take off in my generation, but back then most people didn't have cable and programming that was of interest to kids wasn't on all day every day. I had Saturday morning cartoons. Later, some "after school" shows. But most of the time, TV had boring stuff like news and soap operas. Game shows were tolerable on a day I was home sick or when school was closed for snow. But the summers I spent running around out in the world. I may not have had friends my age, but I got on famously with adults. And the very instant I cleared the gauntlet of puberty, as soon as I had the chance, I started working those social skills which now are finely tuned and well developed. Also, before I ever started doing that, I read hundreds of books.
Now, though? Kids are parked in front of TV with all day, all night cartoons. Endless streaming kids' content. Must have a tablet to play on everywhere they go. As teens, it's video games and more video games. We have adults who constantly ask, "how do you make or keep friends as an adult, I can't figure it out?" Well...you have to go to where the humans are, and interact with them. Repeatedly, and with patience, because people don't necessarily warm to you or trust you in one second upon seeing your face. And OLD? OLD brings the worst of the nonsense I heard from stupid boys on the bus in high school and blends it with internet troll culture, and at best if you aren't dealing with that, you're dealing with people (men and women both) who have already worked out this whole picture of who and what they want, and stand there saying if you don't fit precisely this entire preconceived fantasy they have in mind, don't bother. /shrug...like...ok, I wont?
I have complicated feelings about things moving online. I agree that a lot of social and life skills are just easier to pick up in person, so I am definitely on the same page with you on that. But there are certain types of questions that I think I would have more problems getting a useful answer offline, this thread topic is one of them. I also don't think offline I have a chance to have a discussion with as many different types of voices as I hear at a place like here.
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Thanks for sharing.
