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No. The marriage was supposed to be but the reality she was not up to equal effort in our marriage... We had a long engagement to plan it out. She skirted that knowing very well that the husband will step up because it is expected.
I don't think that she did. I think that she found herself feeling overwhelmed and unhappy and tried to find some kind of a way to shift the load. I think that talk of "modern" versus "traditional" gender roles is nothing but an excuse or a justification in this situation coming from either one of you. But just like you were not seeing how burdened she felt, she was not seeing how burdened you felt. Neither of you was seeing the other, only your own problems and feelings. When that happens in a marriage it can get really hard to work honestly together to actually solve issues that affect the whole, because you get this thing where you feel you've got to look out for yourself because no one else will care about your priorities. It isn't good for anyone. And it's damn hard to break out of for a couple to come back together, because each person is thinking, "yeah but if I put in the effort, what if they don't... You first!"
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From my many dates, most women are not. Like the many dates I've been on with modern women, most with jobs and careers STILL expect the man to pay the expenses; not the option (which they offer) but they still expect. They are a modern woman expected to have the freedom to pursue their own careers and such but still expect the man to be the breadwinner.
Some years ago, we had a flood of threads started about this. And you know who was saying that the guy should pay? The guys were. And, yes, a few of the women. But most of us (women) were saying that it depends on who asks whom to what restaurant or else we'd just rather always pay our own way.
If you are encountering lots of women who assume/expect you'll pay, there might be something about those women. And it could be a question of what women you realistically feel you've got a shot with, some kind of "savior" mentality, or even what quality of women are on dating apps in some given region. But I promise you, plenty of women will make a very genuine effort to pay our own way on a date. I won't insist to the extent of having some sort of a shouty argument with a man who is bound and determined to get the check, but I'd rather pay my own way. And I've also paid the way for men, especially if I invited them to go somewhere I knew they couldn't easily afford. I would make it clear before the date, though.
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How many women lose access to their children, home, and finances when their husband initiates the divorce? How many men generally stick it out (a lot)? Are the expectations resting on the women's shoulders to provide for their family financially not just the opportunity to do so?
How many women stay with men they don't want to be with because they never had full access to their own finances or control of them or savings of their own, and because if they left they knew that they and the kids would be plunged into a life of poverty? How many women look at a household where they spent all of their time mothering and caring for the kids, hands on, only to have a man who goes to work and comes home and avoids the family to "decompress" from his day...which yeah, may well be hard... And he talks like he's just as capable of raising the kids when he never changed a diaper, helped with a school project, cared for a sick kid, reads a book to them at night... Because that was MY situation. My ex threatened to kick me out, tell stories about me in court to make me look like a terrible mother, and take our kids from me. When I asked how he planned to raise them since he'd never put much effort into it before, he said he'd just give them to his mother.
My ex used our children like hostages. Every time I was not utterly compliant and we were arguing, he'd tell them that "Mommy is going to go away forever and you'll never see her again," and then turn them, crying, on me, while staring me down.
The only reason he wanted the kids was if it would hurt them to hurt me, and hurt me directly.
And tons of men don't or can't or won't keep jobs...it is hard to get blood out of a turnip, as they say. Those men are not providing for their children, whether they're present or absent from their lives.
Oh, I know there are good fathers out there who are stuck dealing with hellacious exes just to try and see their kids and be part of their lives. I know that. My experience does not invalidate yours.
But if a man doesn't want to be a parent at all, at any point, he can just up and leave. Yeah, he might have to pay to help with their upkeep, but do not for one second think that the moms are not working and contributing to those costs, too, in a high majority of cases. But past adoption in infancy, a woman is raising children for decades whether she wants to or not. Very few men will take custody and even some percentage of those who would...are not credible in their actual ability to do the job.
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I could see the same about the male perspective.... which is in part the reason why many are exiting dating and the concept of marriage altogether.
and no.... the whole traditional relationships with the women living it easy. I did not say that.
Plenty of women are exiting dating and relationships, too. Particularly women who are divorced in their 30s or older and have the self sufficiency to make it and the wisdom to know better. But those women are, best as I can tell, living their best lives on their own. Most of the men who talk about exiting the dating pool, never stop complaining about it. And would likely jump at the chance to have a woman in their lives anyways, it's just that none are volunteering for it.
But that's kinda what I have been trying to say here. Plenty of PEOPLE have had bad experiences with other PEOPLE and don't wanna get burned again.
And then there are the lucky ones, who are with partners who aren't crap, and who manage to have pretty happy lives in healthy marriages. I count myself among them now. It's still a thing no matter what anyone might think.
And those of us doing that aren't worrying about whether we're "modern" or "traditional"...we're too busy being happy, and just do what works.
I don't think that she did. I think that she found herself feeling overwhelmed and unhappy and tried to find some kind of a way to shift the load.
We got married both got jobs once we moved. She had 1 job and I had two. She graduated with great standing with a master's and I barely passed college. She has the same job (two different companies) and the same pay till today. That's 22 years of being comfortable and cruising at a job on autopilot with low pay; most of which was part-time (and still is). That was 3 years after we got engaged (and planned what we wanted to do), 5 years before our first child, and 11 years before our twins.
She was not overwhelmed the entire time. I think that notion came out of what you want to hear about my situation rather than what I'm telling you. She certainly was not overwhelmed during the 5 years it was just us two with no children. We also waited 6 years full years before having another child. It was ample time to know that she had to grow her career beyond her current position to meet our goals as a couple and support our future family.
If I had just remained a bartender because I loved it, accepted the low pay, and ignored the needs of the family and the goals I had set with my wife, many people here would consider me a deadbeat husband with no ambition. I have my own mental illnesses and was also overwhelmed... I didn't use it as an excuse to shift the load...
Again tho.... I've always been a hard worker and hustled a lot. I would have been disappointed but I was satisfied knowing I was providing what was necessary. She would have been happy cruising in her job and I would have been satisfied as the breadwinner. We were ok for a while.
Things didn't go really south with me until she initiated the separation and pushed me out of my own home and away from the children that I worked so hard for. I believe she is still a good person and a good mother; I truly believe she still is. But that decision and the horrible year or so I had to live through really just made it that difficult for me to come to terms with.
I spent my first week outside of my home locked in a hotel room with no idea what to do.... no support structure. She didn't reach out to me and didn't have someone check on me. It wasn't until the good graces of a friend I barely knew from my work as a bartender finally knocked on my door... It was a small gesture of homemade soup.. but at that moment it meant the world to me.
I've been dating now for a few years, albeit nothing serious. Just my way of finally after decades of taking care of everyone else doing something for myself.. almost every weekend. All sorts of women from all sorts of age groups. A modern woman in the dating scene still believes that it is the role of the man to pay for dates. I don't mind. However, the one thing she can do to impress me is "offer" to contribute to the expenses. It's only happened maybe 3 times in all those dates; one was a 24-year-old which leads me to believe times are indeed changing. So we sit and talk about being a career woman, economy, politics, among other things... meanwhile I'm paying for everything... go figure.
Most of my friends are women. All the dates I've been with are women. My wife is a woman. As I've said, I believe most women are a blend of both. I've enjoyed the company of really truly "traditional woman"; usually my age or slightly elder. I have yet to meet a truly "modern woman" willing to take on fully the expectations that historically fell on a man's shoulders. The closest was a traditional single mother financially struggling and she insisted on contributing back to the expenses of our dates by taking me out grocery shopping for my children (she had extra EBT/Snap). There was a reason she was one of two that I dated more seriously.
I don't know if you have ever had a woman ask you out- it's both flattering but the few times it happened it was also something that I just wasn't expecting when it happened and it took me completely off guard.
The reason I mention this is that guys have generally given a great deal more thought to women that they ask out than women have given to the men who asked them out. Often the process of asking a woman out on a date is the first time you show up on her radar and it's the first time she has given much thought to the idea of actually dating you. Whereas as, you might have noticed her from a far, thought she seemed worth getting to know better, then decided her personality was fun.
Only then you decide to ask her out. So emotionally you are often a lot more interested in her than she is in you at the time you introduce yourself and ask her out.
What you are paying for is the opportunity to get to know her better. Also paying for the date signals romantic intentions on your part. It keeps things clearly man to woman.
That said as the dating process moves forward I am looking for indications of increasing investment on her part. Did she show up on time, did she dress appropriately for the date, was she a willing and enthusiastic participant? The more that is happening, the more likely their will be subsequent dates. If after several dates she isn't willing to contribute to the cost of dating then I will pull the plug on this endeavor. You really shouldn't be pursuing women in such a manner where you are resenting them It's important to set and enforce boundaries in your relationships.
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Originally Posted by DefiantNJ
OK, so you found one article from womanosphere that agrees with your point of view? The article I quoted is actually from a large law firm, hardly manosphere, whatever that might be. And there are hundreds of articles quoting similar statistics about divorce initiation... So whenever there is smoke, there is fire...
Yes, yes I agree that when there is domestic violence, divorce is a good thing. In fact I don't know anyone who would disagree. I am puzzled as to why you and many other feminists keep bringing this point up. We are talking about a small percentage of families who have this problem. It sounds like maybe you are trying to blame all men for a very small percentage of abusers?
And you know I read that the domestic violence on men by women is widely underreported. Mainly because men's concerns are routinely dismissed and not taken seriously as part of feminist's war on men. And also, while on average men are stronger, in the big country like US, there are families where woman does physical work while a man has a desk job. In those cases, their strength is about the same and the domestic violence is dangerous to both. So blaming all domestic violence on men is unfair.
Highly dependent on a woman. A woman who thinks that she needs to be always happy will break up the family without hesitation. A woman ready for hard work and self sacrifice will not be.
It is true that financially, neither party is better after a divorce. But women often end up better off, at least for middle class suburban families. A woman ends up staying at the couple's house with the children so that they don't have to change schools, find new friends, etc. A man is forced to then rent and apartment in a cheaper town with worst schools simply because most US families can not afford to pay for two nice residencies. And thus 50% child custody is not practical and men have to pay child support. Just read what "usayit" wrote about his experience in this very thread.
I don't know, I know a lot of miserable men in marriages with wife and kids. I think marriage is brutal to US men as they are expected to succeed at work but also contribute equally at home. While most women slow down their work at least to some extent when the kids are young...
The date psychology piece was a summary of the work of researchers in the field who have subject matter expertise in the field. He cited 90 peer reviewed articles to back up what he was saying. You cited one article put out by a law firm, it didn't bother to cite where it got its data.
Financially both parties are worse off after a divorce. Lawyers and expert witnesses in divorce cases are paid out of the marital estate. It's more expensive to pay for two homes than one home. Neither men nor women come out ahead of where they would have been if they never divorced. Women are not divorcing men for the money. If they were just in it for the money, they would stay married and cheat.
On average single people and married people are about equally happy. But married people fall into two distinct categories.tbe people who are happily married make, more money, have more sex, live longer and bounce back from adverse life events like divorce. So being married to the right person is a great thing.
But the people who are unhappily married are truly miserable. When marriages go bad, they are miserable. Divorce is expensive, but if your relationship is bad enough, it's worth every penny.
So I want to be clear, I don't think marriage is a panacea. Instead I think it's a high risk high reward endeavor and you shouldn't enter into it lightly. But with the right person, I think it's a great idea. Few things can improve your overall level of happiness more than the right relationship with the right person.
I don't know if you have ever had a woman ask you out- it's both flattering but the few times it happened it was also something that I just wasn't expecting when it happened and it took me completely off guard.
The reason I mention this is that guys have generally given a great deal more thought to women that they ask out than women have given to the men who asked them out. Often the process of asking a woman out on a date is the first time you show up on her radar and it's the first time she has given much thought to the idea of actually dating you. Whereas as, you might have noticed her from a far, thought she seemed worth getting to know better, then decided her personality was fun.
Only then you decide to ask her out. So emotionally you are often a lot more interested in her than she is in you at the time you introduce yourself and ask her out.
Happens a lot more now than when I was dating decades ago. Just posted in another thread about one encounter.
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Originally Posted by usayit
UGH... hate that. Unless there is a good reason I usually don't even respond to them.
I actually had that happen to me recently. Met a nice lady at a bar and had a long conversation. I bought her another drink or two; even danced right there at the bar. She then asked if I was free tonight (it was still early) to go out to a club she knew nearby. I told her I would love to. After a little while it was time to go to the club. She excused herself to freshen up at home; she said she lived in the building next door and would like me to wait for her.
I waited 3 hours..... watching the game on tv.. sipping water to make sure I was sober.
The next morning she said she was sorry. Claimed to pass out because she was "tired". I never responded.
oh well.... I did enjoy dancing with her and would have been nice to continue at the club. Probably will run into her again considering she lives right here. A good target for the stink-eye... haha.
I agree with the others. Rejection is part of the game and probably good. What I don't need at this point in my life is someone who can't drink responsibly to the point of passing out. Been there and done that several times. Probably just wanted to get me for a few drinks on me now I think about it.
Yeah... probably a bad example because she never returned... lol. I didn't know this lady and she approached me. Usually, I date people within or near my immediate circle of friends. Most of my friends are female. So it is not unusual for the prospective date to know a lot more about me than I know about them. Understandably, they chit-chat among themselves and I will admit a man hanging out with a bunch of women friends is at times intimidating to them. I also posted earlier about a 24 year old friend of mine asking me out to a concert; she was one of the few who insisted the whole night was on her. Never thought this almost 50-year-old would be caught dead in a mosh pit... it was fun! I figure her generation is more open to paying for dates they initiate... so times may be changing.
In general, the ladies who approach me still are not offering even a drink, I end up paying for at least the next several dates. What a lot of ladies don't realize is that most guys actually don't mind paying for the dates (assuming reasonably within budget). What is important to guys is that they offer. The dating scene is very difficult for guys because it is always from the traditional perspective that the woman is his "guest" no matter who initiated it... it really doesn't fall under the whole "modern woman" notion even if they do claim to be independent, career-driven modern women... but things fall back to a traditional role when it is most convenient.
My point is that the circumstances you describe aren't gender specific today but what happens after is still specifically the role of a man. An investment of Time, Energy, and Attention with little reciprocation until several dates into it. I also do know a few of my friends will go on dates for a free affordable time on his dime (it can be a power trip for them)... I will stress that I don't believe this is common... but a woman can still pull it off today while a man cannot. As a bartender, it is kinda an old joke that a woman doesn't need money to have a good time here (a lot of older guy regulars looking for company). That joke didn't come from me but from a female bartender coworker.
We got married both got jobs once we moved. She had 1 job and I had two. She graduated with great standing with a master's and I barely passed college. She has the same job (two different companies) and the same pay till today. That's 22 years of being comfortable and cruising at a job on autopilot with low pay; most of which was part-time (and still is). That was 3 years after we got engaged (and planned what we wanted to do), 5 years before our first child, and 11 years before our twins.
She was not overwhelmed the entire time. I think that notion came out of what you want to hear about my situation rather than what I'm telling you. She certainly was not overwhelmed during the 5 years it was just us two with no children. We also waited 6 years full years before having another child. It was ample time to know that she had to grow her career beyond her current position to meet our goals as a couple and support our future family.
If I had just remained a bartender because I loved it, accepted the low pay, and ignored the needs of the family and the goals I had set with my wife, many people here would consider me a deadbeat husband with no ambition. I have my own mental illnesses and was also overwhelmed... I didn't use it as an excuse to shift the load...
Again tho.... I've always been a hard worker and hustled a lot. I would have been disappointed but I was satisfied knowing I was providing what was necessary. She would have been happy cruising in her job and I would have been satisfied as the breadwinner. We were ok for a while.
Things didn't go really south with me until she initiated the separation and pushed me out of my own home and away from the children that I worked so hard for. I believe she is still a good person and a good mother; I truly believe she still is. But that decision and the horrible year or so I had to live through really just made it that difficult for me to come to terms with.
I spent my first week outside of my home locked in a hotel room with no idea what to do.... no support structure. She didn't reach out to me and didn't have someone check on me. It wasn't until the good graces of a friend I barely knew from my work as a bartender finally knocked on my door... It was a small gesture of homemade soup.. but at that moment it meant the world to me.
Right, so in the early years before the kids, although you were hustling and she was cruising (was she still doing college during those years? Because that kinda changes things)... You were both more or less OK with what was going on, or you believed that the situation would change and she would step up and earn more in the future, yeah?
But the load...the demand...on both of you was lighter, so the resentment hadn't yet started to accumulate.
Only after the kids came along and a massive ton of bricks of stress and demand landed on both of you, did each of you start to feel buried and overwhelmed. I can tell from what you've said that each one of you reached out to the other for some understanding, visibility and appreciation of what you were going through. But with only partial success. And to be honest, I wonder if what you saw as a problem to be solved by hiring childcare for days she wasn't even working and help with house cleaning (do I have that right?) was the wrong response to a bid for emotional support. I think that happens a lot, where a woman just wants to express herself and be loved and heard...but instead gets problem-solving reactions.
Weird fact but sometimes that actually makes it worse. It comes off as, "what do I need to do to shut you up and get you out of my face about this?" rather than, "I love you and I'm here for you."
Look, the fact that what we see so much of this construction of your "imaginary court case in your head" about how good you were and how bad she was in the marriage... Defensive thinking and grievance spinning... I'm trying to tell you that it is not helpful to any outcome you might want here. It won't help you work on whatever is between the two of you, whether that's a marriage or just co-parenting. It won't help you heal, it won't help you build a healthy relationship with another person. There comes a point in everyone's situation...whether it's in thinking about how a parent treated us as a child, or how a spouse or ex treated us in a relationship, or whatever...when forgiveness is not about them, it's about you. It's about the landscape inside your own head that you have to live in. And it does not mean just wiping away all of their sins and pretending it never happened, it's about accepting that they are human and might have made mistakes. And that you are too, and probably did, too. But here you are, and no one can un-ring any bell. You can only determine how to go forward. That is all.
Specifically one huge thing that I think only serves to keep people stuck and unhappy in any situation, is the pattern-seeking/conspiracy-building thought patterns. Trying to make like it's how a gender operates due to how they are all wired or crafting some big theory about gender roles or whatever. People make choices. Seriously, in this day and age, that's it. And they might mouth whatever rationale they want, but it doesn't change a damn thing. They made a choice.
As for your "who pays for dates" stuff... I was actually uncomfortable with the men who really insisted on paying for dates. I always pulled out my wallet, like not just saying, "I'll pay my share if you want?" but more to signal, "I'm completely prepared to pay for at least my own share of this, for real" and a lot of guys would tell me to put it away. I didn't like it because I make as much and sometimes more than them, I'm fully capable of paying my way, and I just don't see the point in the gesture. I'm not into it. I always felt better when we each paid our own way. And with my (present/second) husband, we started out that way when we were dating. Then when we lived together, we negotiated an arrangement of sharing expenses that was proportionate to our incomes (his was 1/3, mine was 2/3) and that was great because a.) it came out to a little less than either of us was paying before we moved in together, so savings for both/each and b.) I also needed more of the household "resources" and space because my sons from my first marriage lived with us. Those kids are my problem. Not his.
When he retired and went on Social Security, his income decreased and he was able and expected to contribute less. Then his father passed and he got a hefty inheritance, and I've had some burdens on me from family members I've helped, so he is temporarily covering shared bills like utilities and such, to give me some breathing room to recover.
We trust one another. And we negotiate and renegotiate as circumstances change. Which they typically do in a marriage that spans years or decades. We discuss what resources we have, what load of obligations we have, and what our goals are, and the best ways to strategize to meet present obligations and stay prepared for the future.
And I know you are really focused on your own hurt and your own experiences. But I would lay a really hefty wager that if one were able to get her side of the story, she'd have a lot to say about why she made all of the choices she did, including the one where she told the breadwinner to leave the home. Women don't usually do that for no good reason, and I doubt that she is unaware of the financial realities here.
The divorce filing statistic is widely cited and accepted in the manosphere as a claim for who initiated divorce, but the divorce filing statistics is not accepted by actual researchers in the field as as at all representative of who actually initiates divorce. The Date Psychology article explains how actual experts in the field look at the matter and cites 89 academic papers to back up his position of why this statistic is misleading about who is actually initiating divorce and at what rates as well as why they are initiating divorce. This article is really worth reading if you haven't read it already.
As long as everyone can agree that the man is at fault for 100% of the divorces regardless of who files, the actual filing percentages are just a side note.
As long as everyone can agree that the man is at fault for 100% of the divorces regardless of who files, the actual filing percentages are just a side note.
As long as people continue to see it as one gender vs the other, antagonists and natural enemies rather than teammates and fellow human beings with human problems, divorces will continue to happen.
Fault doesn't matter.
Focusing on fault rather than responsibility (as in, you can control yourself, and be responsible for what you are able to be responsible for...but fault and blame is futile because you can't control another person)...that way lies bitterness and misery and no solutions for anyone.
In other words...do you want to be happy, or do you want to be right? One cannot always be both.
Right, so in the early years before the kids, although you were hustling and she was cruising (was she still doing college during those years? Because that kinda changes things)... You were both more or less OK with what was going on, or you believed that the situation would change and she would step up and earn more in the future, yeah?
But the load...the demand...on both of you was lighter, so the resentment hadn't yet started to accumulate.
Only after the kids came along and a massive ton of bricks of stress and demand landed on both of you, did each of you start to feel buried and overwhelmed. I can tell from what you've said that each one of you reached out to the other for some understanding, visibility and appreciation of what you were going through. But with only partial success. And to be honest, I wonder if what you saw as a problem to be solved by hiring childcare for days she wasn't even working and help with house cleaning (do I have that right?) was the wrong response to a bid for emotional support. I think that happens a lot, where a woman just wants to express herself and be loved and heard...but instead gets problem-solving reactions.
Weird fact but sometimes that actually makes it worse. It comes off as, "what do I need to do to shut you up and get you out of my face about this?" rather than, "I love you and I'm here for you."
The bolded part is what is a common problem with women... you have to be literally a mind reader. The one thing that our marriage counselor (the one I didn't like) said to her that I agreed with is that he cannot read your mind. You have to communicate or not get upset over things you did not communicate. If someone trying to help causes you to think "what do I need to do to shut you up" who is the issue here? the person trying to help? or the person being helped and not willing to openly receive it? Somehow that is acceptable behavior for a woman but a man does it it is abusive?
The counselor encouraged me to continue to share my feelings and thoughts with her BUT not expect a response and certainly do not demand a response. To allow her to respond when she is ready in her own way... when she is comfortable. Which is why I came up with the idea of only talking about these things during dinner out away from children. When things are hopefully more comfortable.
Of course, you would call that "lecturing". As your tone always has to paint the wife in these situations in the best light possible. What is the alternative? Don't say anything.. we were already doing that. So again.. different standards because she is the wife?
I don't think you quite understand the situation at the time...
When the kids came and I saw my wife struggling, I defaulted to catering to whatever need she requested. I made zero decisions to avoid the extra stresses of a potential disagreement. She was the one who would decide what days to work, be home, and daycare. I simply told her I would do whatever it takes to make it happen. As for the housework, I did what I could; as mostly I was the one cooking,I focused on the kitchen. She came to me complaining that she couldn't simply keep up with the rest of the house. I told her that she should just do what she could and the rest will just get done when it gets done; prioritize accordingly. I told her that a messy house wasn't bothering me as long as the kids and she had what they needed. She said the issue was that it was bothering her. I suggested a housekeeper and she said it was a good idea if we can afford it. I could only afford a few days a month... so that's what we did.
I didn't put the kids in child daycare
I didn't decide which days she worked, stayed home with kids, stayed home without kdis.
I only suggest a housekeeper. She agreed to it saying it would help.
The only decision I recall making on my own was the mini-van. She complained the car was too small for 3 kids. One day I saw an ad for a mini-van for $10k cash; 10+ years old but low mileage. I paid cash for it and drove it home. I told her that she did not have to drive it if she didn't want it. It would be my car for commuting to and from work. However, if she finds it useful she can use it whenever she wants. She "borrowed" it here and there and gradually it became her car.
She is still driving that van today... It is her primary vehicle.
Again.... I was disappointed that things didn't work out as planned but I could live with it; as long as I was providing and with my children.. I didn't resent her until I was literally kicked out of my own home and away from my own children. Can you imagine if a husband kicks his wife and mother of children out of the home (assuming no abuse)? Most of yall would consider that husband abusive. The same is not true when we kick husbands out of the home away from kids... it happens every day.
And yes.. you right.. can't unring that bell. So at this time we are in the best situation I've been able to work out. I am home with the kids albeit living in the basement I finished. I have my own space to work. I don't have to worry about additional rent. I hear my kids come home and get to spend time with them. We are together during the day on weekends as a family. She does her thing and spends the evening pretty much just watching TV and nothing else. I sit next to her at times to watch TV but she pretty much ignores me. I make dinners and clean the kitchen. I take my sons to violin, orchestra, tutoring, music lessons, and soccer. In the evening on Friday through Saturday, I go out and join my friends and go on dates (she knows).
However, yes... I also can't unring the year or so I spent kicked out of my own home without my kids. I can't get passed that on my own... I do resent her for that. Her silence and refusal to talk to me about it isn't going to make it better.
Look.... As you know from my many other posts, I have many female friends. I have no animosity against the female gender. I probably know how to get along with them more than most guys here. However, if women want to be treated in a more equal and better manner, the good and bad has to come along with it... When it comes to my wife, her actions and behavior should be judged in the same manner... As I said, I've been in her life for 29 years and more than 2 decades of being in a relationship with her. I committed to her 100%. I promised to stick it out through thick and thin. She is a good mother and I believe a good person... but as a wife.. neglectful.... and didn't stick it out through thick and thin.
So when someone says most divorces are initiated by women, the assumption is that the men just lazy or can't get themselves to do it. What I hear is that men are more committed then women and have more of a vested interest to keep trying to fix things. When a woman tells a man the system isn't stacked against them it is no different from a man telling a woman that domestic violence is a figment of their imagination. Both are marginalizing the concerns of the other...
The bolded part is what is a common problem with women... you have to be literally a mind reader. The one thing that our marriage counselor (the one I didn't like) said to her that I agreed with is that he cannot read your mind. You have to communicate or not get upset over things you did not communicate.
He encouraged me to continue to share my feelings and thoughts with her BUT not expect a response and certainly do not demand a response. To allow her to respond when she is ready in her own way... when she is comfortable. Which is why I came up with the idea of only talking about these things during dinner out away from children. When things are hopefully more comfortable.
Of course, you would call that "lecturing". As your tone always has to paint the wife in these situations in the best light possible. What is the alternative? Don't say anything.. we were already doing that.
I don't think you quite understand the situation at the time...
When the kids came and I saw my wife struggling, I defaulted to catering to whatever need she requested. I made zero decisions to avoid the extra stresses of a potential disagreement. She was the one who would decide what days to work, be home, and daycare. I simply told her I would do whatever it takes to make it happen. As for the housework, I did what I could; as mostly I was the one cooking,I focused on the kitchen. She came to me complaining that she couldn't simply keep up with the rest of the house. I told her that she should just do what she could and the rest will just get done when it gets done; prioritize accordingly. I told her that a messy house wasn't bothering me as long as the kids and she had what they needed. She said the issue was that it was bothering her. I suggested a housekeeper and she said it was a good idea if we can afford it.
I didn't put the kids in child daycare
I didn't decide which days she worked, stayed home with kids, stayed home without kdis.
I only suggest a housekeeper. She agreed to it saying it would help.
The only decision I recall making on my own was the mini-van. She complained the car was too small for 3 kids. One day I saw an ad for a mini-van for $10k cash; 10+ years old but low mileage. I paid cash for it and drove it home. I told her that she did not have to drive it if she didn't want it. It would be my car for commuting to and from work. However, if she finds it useful she can use it whenever she wants. She "borrowed" it here and there and gradually it became her car.
She is still driving that van today... It is her primary vehicle.
Again.... I was disappointed that things didn't work out as planned but I could live with it; as long as I was providing and with my children.. I didn't resent her until i was literally kicked out of my own home and away from my own children. Can you imagine if a husband kicks his wife and mother of children out of the home? Most of yall would consider that husband abusive. The same is not true when we kick husbands out of the home away from kids.
No, you are not a mind reader, and neither is she. And maybe she needs to get her head clear on that and not assume she knows how you might react to something she might say, I don't know. I just wonder why she is "listening" but not talking. It isn't a good sign. And sitting there listening and not talking does feel like being lectured. Most of the time when someone is doing that, there is a reason...maybe not a good or accurate reason, but a reason, and one that matters. Something that either needs to change, or damage needing healed within her.
It really sounds to me like the two of you are stuck in quite a bad situation. Both extremely unhappy in this marriage and this life...but you are OK to keep trudging on like this, and she does not want to. Again, I won't believe without hearing her side, that she had no real reason for wanting you out of the house when she did that.
And most of the time, when parents split up, decisions are made that have more to do with what's logistically possible with the resources at hand for the best interest of the kids. The kids' needs are the most important factor. I've seen it go various different ways, but it is FAR from always just the man getting booted out of the house.
Sometimes he leaves voluntarily.
Sometimes the kids stay with him (my parents did that, at least at first) and the wife leaves.
And often in family court, if the kids are not little children but at least adolescents, the judge will just ask them who they want to live with, if custody is contested and neither parent is "unfit." The other parent gets visitation.
In my divorce, initially we had it so I'd take one kid and the other stayed with my ex in the house. I did not want the house, my work had relocated the office to the other side of town. The kid who went with me was in constant conflict with his father and needed to be away for his own safety. The other one was 15 and wanted to stay because he didn't want to be parted from his girlfriend in a new school. This allowed us to structure the divorce on paper so that no one had any legal support obligation, which is what I wanted. Despite the awfulness, we could still talk and make agreements to contribute however we could when a problem arose that needed a solution. We still can. Our kids are now young adults and the one who stayed behind with my ex, has refused to speak to him for years.
So whatever is going on, however you or she is acting...you might keep in mind that kids tend to remember, and one day may be pretty unforgiving when they are grown and making decisions about whether they want to have a relationship with either of you or not. And no narrative on this earth is going to persuade them that they did not see or hear whatever they saw or heard.
I don't care if you are being totally real about all this here on the internet. I'm no one. I'm a complete stranger. Say anything you want, insist your wife just is not properly modern enough, or traditional enough, or whatever your theory is. Doesn't matter what anybody who reads this thinks. Like I said right off the bat, maybe she IS just frivolous and selfish. I don't know her or you.
But your kids do. And no narratives of grievance will truly get them to be on your side ultimately if their eyes and ears have better evidence...and that's just something to keep in mind. Your kids won't care who paid for a minivan. But they will see who is in fact a user, and they will hear words spoken in anger. And eventually they'll have their own beliefs about all of that and there won't be anything you can do to change their minds. (You OR her, so I'm being clear.)
I mean, from where I sit, I'm over here considering certain things you have told us about company you keep and what an open mind you have about certain kinds of people, which is all well and good but then you say you've been married 22 years with twins who were sick a lot, non stop hustle with two jobs and all this. When did you have the time to be such good friends to prostitutes or strippers or whatever that was, I wonder? I mean...there's just more to your story. But it's not my business. Like I said, you ain't gotta come clean to anybody here about anything at all, but I think it might help you in life to be honest with yourself and I've got a sense that there's some BS'ing going on here.
That is the culture that I grew up in, lived in as a young adult, and basically all the way up to when I retired.
Not me. None of the housewives had a cleaning service or nanny or had time to go to the gym or spa, nor got a generous clothing allowance. Nor had a large life insurance policy.
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