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usayit... I think that there has to come a point where you're way outside the bounds of a conversation about "modern" vs "traditional" and into the territory of "selfish" and "impractical." You can't use gender roles or any other ideology to excuse bad behavior that causes harm. Stuff either WORKS or it doesn't. A successful marriage involves a need for a certain degree of basic practicality, figuring out what is needed and what resources each person has to bring to bear, to get necessary things done. Talking about who is or isn't best utilizing their time and energy, and where sometimes we have to compromise our dreams and desires just to make life work out for the time being.
In too many of these conversations I feel like people are just trying to decide which is more frivolous and selfish, a "modern" woman or a "traditional" woman. I think it's probably more accurate to say that some PEOPLE are frivolous and selfish, some aren't, and those who are might use any kind of justification they want to try and support their right to be. I've known far too many practical, giving, hard working, and self sacrificing women to think for one second that this issue is about "gender roles."
And, for that matter, impractical, advantage taking, lazy and selfish men. And lest anybody think it, that includes men and women of past eras, despite the nonsense "1950s household" ideal that some folks have. There were always plenty of individuals who were advantage takers or just impractical or foolish, who made choices that harmed their spouses and families. Rigid concepts of gender roles did not prevent that.
I'm sorry for what you endured, usayit. As you know, I've got regrets about my first marriage and the other parent of my kids, too.
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Originally Posted by usayit
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Men simply don't hold the ability to "provide" as high when it comes to attraction. Heck, some men don't even take it into consideration.
I've seen men overlook all kinds of things when blinded by either physical attraction or, in some cases, a woman who was just kind and made them feel good...or an opportunity when opportunities for love seemed scarce. I've seen plenty of women make mistakes (hello!) in judgment with poorly chosen men, too. It isn't just not caring if she can provide, there are guys out there falling in love with sexy psychos and immature women and all sorts of problematic gals....but then, there are women out there falling for "hobosexuals" and abusers and criminals.
Sometimes, for all sorts of reasons, people make bad choices.
What about the ones who DON'T though? What guides their paths? Family expectations and upbringing to achieve a certain level of personal progress and maturity before choosing a mate, or to marry within their socioeconomic group? IQ? Risk avoidance? Luck? Like perhaps instead of looking at all the ways in which we and other people manage to fail in marriage...what about those who succeed? 'Cause I feel like a lot of people who wonder if there's some merit to "gender roles" are really asking that question, how to find happiness and success?
But I just don't think that the past ("traditional") was truly as idyllic as a lot of folks think, I know of plenty of awful marriages from back then. I don't think "it was a nightmare but I couldn't leave" is the reality anybody wants. I think that the road to success is not as easy as a simple binary of traditional vs modern. It involves either getting very lucky or else taking your time to try and get to know someone, and having good boundaries and communication skills and habits. I don't know that there are ever any guarantees, though. But at the same time? No risk, no reward.
I think there are stereotypes, cliches, biological influences and societal influences, and probably 100 other things that create a personality.
And while there can be "truths" in each one of those things, you can't apply it to individuals.
I think trying to shove people into pre-determined boxes will ultimately result in some form of unhappiness, because people won't stay in your box.
At the end of the day, you are dealing with a complex being whose sense of self has been influenced over the decades by a myriad of things, situations and feelings.
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I see your point. And this comes, IMO, from antiquity of societies placing men as providers and women as nurturers and servants. Granted we are biologically built for such in a primitive world, but there was never a need to prohibit the sexes from fulfilling either role especially as we became civilized industrial nations.
Now that societies have broken through those boundaries those old ideas still linger.
Perhaps one day they will not but we still have a ways to go.
And that's the other side of the coin, too. Are the guys who are imagining a "traditional" woman willing to also be a "traditional" man? Hint, it doesn't involve sitting on your butt playing video games while she cooks and cleans around you.
And that's the other side of the coin, too. Are the guys who are imagining a "traditional" woman willing to also be a "traditional" man? Hint, it doesn't involve sitting on your butt playing video games while she cooks and cleans around you.
I guess that depends on how one defines a traditional man.
This is how the OP defined traditional woman.
1) "Traditional" Woman: Has your children, stays at home to take care of them, cooks well, keeps the house very clean, wears very feminine clothing and keeps herself made up/hair done, etc, has sex whenever the husband wants, does more listening than talking, keeps her opinions to herself.
So what would a traditional man be?
Works hard, long hours or two jobs to provide a good living for his wife and kids, nice house, household help with the kids and housework so she can go to the gym and salon/spa to maintain that feminine look and be rested to have sex whenever the husband wants. A generous allowance for those nice clothes to make her look feminine. Takes 100% responsibility for everything, day to day decisions/actions, long term decisions, everything, including maintaining a large life insurance policy and savings in case of any unforeseen financial misfortunes since she has no opinions or wisdom or income to contribute. And should there be a divorce, of course the traditional man must provide child support and sufficient lifelong alimony to cover housing, food, transportation, medical expenses, etc. since she has no job experience of earning potential.
Here's the catch: Despite stepping up to the plate to work harder to earn more so she can be home for all our children and still take on what I can in household chores (and hiring a housekeeper), she initiated the separation. I'm the one that moved out into a crappy apartment. I'm the one who lost the daily visits of my three children. I'm the one still carrying the financial burden of not only my children but her as well (I even bought her a van when her car was too small to carry three children).
In the end (shortly after covid), she asked me to move back in because she couldn't handle it on her own. This ended up being a good step actually. I got time back with my children and she started to listen to me more. She did admit in her own way that she was struggling emotionally with raising children despite wanting to be the one to do so.... and took it out on me. I told her we were both struggling (our twins had a lot of medical issues) and I was working two jobs to keep us afloat. She admitted that she literally "forgot" that I was working two jobs and was simply blinded by her own personal struggles. So when I passed out asleep at the dinner table, I was simply exhausted. She only saw a husband skirting taking on the children.
So while in her mind I was skirting my responsibilities with the children, the reality is that I was doing everything I could for my children. As I mentioned in my previous post, she didn't make the connection that being a parent didn't just mean catering to children's daily needs.
Things are much better at home these days... but I personally am at a point in my life where the damage was done and I have no idea if she is capable of really working it out with me.
I hear a lot of discussion here regarding divorce statistics. I know this is just my personal bias due to my current situation But I stuck it out through thick and thin but my wife didn't.
I'm sure there are a lot of terrible husbands out there. I've never even raised my voice to my wife and did everything I could as a provider. So a lot of what DefiantNJ said (and I do not agree with a lot he posts) rings with me. Good boys are raised to take on a purpose in life and hope that happiness comes along with it. They are raised not to expect "happiness". Without a purpose, a lot of men are lost. Leaving a family generally means a lot of men lose their purpose in life.... so it is very painful for a man.. a good man.. to leave a family even if they are unhappy.
What were the medical issues that the twins were dealing with?
It sounds to me like both you and your wife were just overwhelmed here. Yes you and your wife made plans for how you hoped your life would turn out and who would take over which tasks.
But I am also thinking about Mike Tyson's observation that "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth". When things go really wrong, much worse than you anticipated at the time you agreed to the initial plan and you are hurting, that is often when someone wants to change the initial plan. Yes you were tired and exhausted, but what was she dealing with here? When did she get down time from the twins and their health issues?
Is she being unreasonable here or did you both find yourselves in over your head when things went to hell in a hand basket?
This implies that women are only after money. This is not true. It simply means that men who can provide and with that comes ambition and dependability are considered highly attractive traits in a man.
Even recently I have seen those 'man on the street' interviews where somebody is asking random people on the sidewalk a question. Females when asked for their requirements of a mate, routinely the first thing from their mouth is a set minimum income [ie, six figures, seven figures].
It certainly sounds like this generation of females is focused on wealthy men.
... So what would a traditional man be?
Works hard, long hours or two jobs to provide a good living for his wife and kids, nice house, household help with the kids and housework so she can go to the gym and salon/spa to maintain that feminine look and be rested to have sex whenever the husband wants. A generous allowance for those nice clothes to make her look feminine. Takes 100% responsibility for everything, day to day decisions/actions, long term decisions, everything, including maintaining a large life insurance policy and savings in case of any unforeseen financial misfortunes since she has no opinions or wisdom or income to contribute. And should there be a divorce, of course the traditional man must provide child support and sufficient lifelong alimony to cover housing, food, transportation, medical expenses, etc. since she has no job experience of earning potential.
That is the culture that I grew up in, lived in as a young adult, and basically all the way up to when I retired.
usayit... I think that there has to come a point where you're way outside the bounds of a conversation about "modern" vs "traditional" and into the territory of "selfish" and "impractical." You can't use gender roles or any other ideology to excuse bad behavior that causes harm. Stuff either WORKS or it doesn't. A successful marriage involves a need for a certain degree of basic practicality, figuring out what is needed and what resources each person has to bring to bear, to get necessary things done. Talking about who is or isn't best utilizing their time and energy, and where sometimes we have to compromise our dreams and desires just to make life work out for the time being.
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I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Afterall, the conversation did steer into the ol' men are too lazy to initiate a divorce and women always make the hard decision on behalf initiate divorce routine.
What were the medical issues that the twins were dealing with?
It sounds to me like both you and your wife were just overwhelmed here. Yes you and your wife made plans for how you hoped your life would turn out and who would take over which tasks.
But I am also thinking about Mike Tyson's observation that "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth". When things go really wrong, much worse than you anticipated at the time you agreed to the initial plan and you are hurting, that is often when someone wants to change the initial plan. Yes you were tired and exhausted, but what was she dealing with here? When did she get down time from the twins and their health issues?
Is she being unreasonable here or did you both find yourselves in over your head when things went to hell in a hand basket?
They had a serious form of FPIES which resulted in not only being born underweight but continuously unable to get the nutrients they required to thrive through normal formulas or breast milk. The formula we required was extremely expensive. The normal formula is about $15 a can. The ones we had was $50 a can and we needed a lot of it for two. I know it was probably illegal but I actually had friends help me with supplies out of Canada because I was desperate. By the time we fully transitioned them to normal foods (albeit a very restricted diet due to FPIES and food allergies), I had a two-month's supply. I had a poor fellow in a similar situation drive 3 hours from PA into NJ offering $30 per can. I felt so bad for him after talking to him in person, I simply gave it to him free of charge.
Even if the twins were born "normal" she had already made the decision that she was to remain at home with the kids for our second and she was not going to make the sacrifices required to support the family. She made that decision on her own without me long before the twins were in the picture. There was absolutely no way she can support the family even if we had 1 healthy baby. Heck, she can't even pay half the bills now. She doesn't care as long as she feels like she is the mother and working the job she wants to work. Doesn't matter if we went bankrupt in the process or if my needs/wants were not even a priority.
Yes we were both tired. We were both overworked. But I acknowledged her struggles and supported the family. I took on two jobs. I even paid for daycare. It started out as 1-2 days a week so she had a break. Then it increased to 3 days a week so she had 1 free day and 2 work days as per her request.. Day care was more than my mortgage. I am the one that put 20% for the house. I even paid for a housekeeper to help keep up. I did the cooking and cleaned the kitchen. I'm the one saving for her retirement. Even after separation, I'm the one who bought her a replacement vehicle large enough for the kids. I'm the one who cleared out her debts after marriage and dumped my entire life savings.
During this, she even quit her job for a more enjoyable easier one without telling me. She forgot that her previous job was paying for our medical insurance and her job essentially was a pay cut. So again, I had to step up for a different job that provided insurance AND pass up opportunities I wanted to pursue. It was a terrible decision considering we needed good insurance for the twins.
Here is the thing. I would have been just fine with all of this. I was raised to make sacrifices for the sake of the family. It was my purpose. Not happy but I would have been fine.. even satisfied knowing that my children survived. All I wanted was at least some recognition and respect for stepping up.
What I got instead was her asking me to separate, I had to leave my home, lose daily interaction with my children, and still be responsible for the vast majority of the bills. I lived in a room and then a crappy apartment which also cost more money. So instead of having more time with my children, I ended up having to "schedule" time so I can do things with them and be with them. It was a horrible experience.
The unreasonable part here is she gave up on "us" when life got tough. Struggling is part of life. It is what it is. It is how one deals with life's struggles that matters here. She only saw her own struggles but was blind to my own struggles and what I was doing to help. It was only after COVID did she realized how much I was actually contributing so I moved back in... to our basement and she started to actually listen to my side. That's what it took for her to listen. Not talk... she doesn't do that yet... but at least listen.
Even today after 9 years of separation and finally healthy children, she is still part-time working the same low-paying job. She is home 1-2 days a week while the kids are now in public school. Meanwhile, I sit here still providing but feeling totally "disposable".
Last edited by usayit; 10-24-2023 at 08:31 PM..
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