Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Even when they're young, boys gravitate more towards math-intensive subjects in school. While girls are more interested in reading-intensive subjects.
This diminishes the effects and the strengths of social pressure, though. Women internalized for years that women are bad in math and science and weren't exactly welcome in those fields. Mattel got slammed for having a Barbie say, "Math is hard, let's go shopping!" When I was in junior high in the 90s, we had an old cranky science teacher who outright said that he didn't know why so many women were in his class because they'd just end up getting married and having babies. You think that was encouragement for all of us to learn more about physics and chemistry?
Most people are not expecting a strict gender role reversal in a "modern" relationship. It just allows a space for couples to decide what works best for their families. Women can be proud of their education and careers. Men can be equal partners in domestic labor and childcare. Whatever works.
This diminishes the effects and the strengths of social pressure, though. Women internalized for years that women are bad in math and science and weren't exactly welcome in those fields. When I was in junior high in the 90s, we had an old cranky science teacher who outright said that he didn't know why so many women were in his class because they'd just end up getting married and having babies. You think that was encouragement for all of us to learn more about physics and chemistry?
Most people are not expecting a strict gender role reversal in a "modern" relationship. It just allows a space for couples to decide what works best for their families. Women can be proud of their education and careers. Men can be equal partners in domestic labor and childcare. Whatever works.
Wow, I’m a similar age as you, and the females weren’t discouraged from pursuing any educational path they chose where I was. I can say that women in STEM has been very strongly encouraged to those under 25.
Wow, I’m a similar age as you, and the females weren’t discouraged from pursuing any educational path they chose where I was. I can say that women in STEM has been very strongly encouraged to those under 25.
She in part paved the way to breaking the norms along gender lines when it comes to education. I learned about her as a kid when space exploration was very much a huge aspiration of mine.
I on the other hand, did just ok in advanced mathematics while following my father's footsteps in electrical engineering. I've never been really good in academics in general. I still proceeded to a career in computer engineering and did quite well.
I think you and the poster you quoted are both correct. I see young children typically gravitate toward toys and types of play that would be considered stereotypical. When my kids were little, I bought a boy doll for my son, realizing he had never been provided with one. It never changed anything about how he played. I also never provided my kids with toy guns. Once they learned about guns (from sources outside the home), my son started making pretend guns out of sticks and other found objects. The stereotypes are there for a reason.
There definitely is nothing bad or wrong with women choosing male dominated fields for their careers. I have a daughter that is currently in school for one and only about ten percent of her classes are women. It’s also fine for women to choose what is considered traditional female track careers or stay at home (with kids).
Upthread you mentioned that you didn’t start seeing stay at home dads until recently. I remember 15 or so years ago knowing a few. I also would see a stay at home dad group that met weekly at the park with their young kids around that same time. Whatever works for the individual family is fine. Many families still will choose the stereotypical way, though.
Granted I live in the rural bible belt in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains. When I was a late teen/early adult there was one father in my little town (pop. 2000) that was a SAHD. I think they had 4 kids. Apparently his wife made more money so he stayed home with the kids.
Of course many choose the stereotypical way. No one is suggesting a major role reversal.
I think it is a good thing for dads to be able to spend more time with their kids as well. I grew up in a traditional hh. On top of his regular job, dad worked a part-time job several days a week. I didnt see much of him growing up and never had a strong relationship with him.
Wow, I’m a similar age as you, and the females weren’t discouraged from pursuing any educational path they chose where I was. I can say that women in STEM has been very strongly encouraged to those under 25.
I was in HS in the 70s. Females were encouraged to take home economics, typing/business, and cosmetology. Extra credit was given to senior girls if they volunteered at the HeadStart center. Actually, those were pretty much the electives for girls besides band and theater. Females were not encouraged to take any advanced math, physics, or chemistry. Females were NOT PERMITTED to take such classes as mechanics, or shop/trades.
I do remember some girls in 4H, but not in ag. There was a FFA (future farmers of America) for males. FHA (future homemakers of America) for girls.
Again, rural Appalachia Mountain foothills.
Most women don't want a house husband. They like the idea of it maybe but not the reality. Not unless they get to have a real man on the side...but then again maybe that's the point. There is a species of bird that works that way. There are three(actually four, three of which are male) genders, female, nurturing male and breeding male. Maybe women dream of having a soy man at home tending to the kids and a real man they can play with when that other guy isn't looking. Or maybe when he is looking, I'm not sure how that kink works.
The only issues I've ever had with the idea, are that first of all I'm not sure I have much faith in a man doing this kind of thing to my standards. I have yet to meet a man who kept his own bathroom properly clean. The men I've had in my life in any way (not just romantically) do not seem to care that much about keeping a home clean. And I've seen some let it get so bad that it became literally uncleanable and the property owner ended up having to demolish and refurbish, like filth bad enough to destroy the room. I know some women can be that bad, too, but I sure as hell am not, and I cannot live happily in a home that disgusts me.
I believe that if you're doing it right, being a stay at home parent is a lot of work. And the men I have known, instead see it as an opportunity to do as little work as possible, preferably right around "none at all."
That's just being taken advantage of. Who wants that?
Then there's the other problem I ran into with my first husband, which is that when the military put him out on disability and he did not have to work anymore...I was fine with him not working, but expected him to take over household responsibilities so that I could go back to college and keep my full time job. He instead became a drunk and a pothead and just constantly yelled at and threatened the kids to try and slave-drive them into doing all of the housework while he napped and played video games. But the worst part of all, was that his mental health fell right into the crapper. With no purpose in life, he wallowed in self loathing, increasingly threatening suicide and worse, to destroy us all and our home and take us with him. So if a man cannot be a "house husband" without turning into a self destructive wreck, then freaking NO THANK YOU. And I do suspect that most people need to feel like they are doing something with their lives. I urged him to get help, and to find some useful thing do to with himself, even some sort of veterans volunteer gig or just...anything. He would not.
In the times that I was not employed, though they were relatively few over the course of our 18 years, I worked my butt off and I would not have thought for one second to make my working spouse's life hell because I was just sitting around self destructing. I felt a debt of gratitude for their hard work and a sense that it was important to make sure that when they got home, everything else was HANDLED and handled to perfection. I have yet to meet a man who would do that.
To speak to the other stuff...gendered interests and so on... I was a prolific reader and I still am, but that doesn't preclude "math and science" ability. My job is considered a math job, but it really isn't. It's data science and analytics but the spreadsheets do all of the "math" for me...most of my work is research and analysis of tariffs and tax codes, so a lot of reading comprehension stuff. And then, too, shmooze with the clients. But when I was a kid, I hated the girl toys that my family heaped on me. HATED THEM. I was always very jealous of my male cousins because I wanted building toys. I wanted to make stuff. I used to break my toys to get parts to build other things. I created a solar powered car out of bits and pieces when I was 7 or 8. It was just a little plank with wheels and a small motor and some solar panels, and you couldn't really control it...when it was in the sun, it went, when it hit shade, it stopped. But I figured it out by myself, though. I was obsessed with magnets, fire and electricity. In school I did not like chemistry or some kinds of math like algebra very much, but I had tremendous enjoyment of physics and geometry.
I don't think that there is a gendered aptitude or lack thereof, really. I think it's more that kids' interests can be and often are encouraged in different directions. And, too, in the past, there were women who did work to contribute to math and science innovations and work and who achieved much, but what they could not compete with was the male ego. Their contributions have often been stolen, ignored, sidelined, and suppressed by men who could not tolerate women outperforming them in their field.
I was in HS in the 70s. Females were encouraged to take home economics, typing/business, and cosmetology. Extra credit was given to senior girls if they volunteered at the HeadStart center. Actually, those were pretty much the electives for girls besides band and theater. Females were not encouraged to take any advanced math, physics, or chemistry. Females were NOT PERMITTED to take such classes as mechanics, or shop/trades.
I do remember some girls in 4H, but not in ag. There was a FFA (future farmers of America) for males. FHA (future homemakers of America) for girls.
Again, rural Appalachia Mountain foothills.
It's not like that anymore. I was in shop class in the early 90s and I loved it. Working with wood and metal. I was in northern VA...more urban but not geographically that far from where you were. A few boys took home ec, too.
And I was required to take physics and chemistry in high school. That was also the case when we moved to a more rural part of VA, a town literally called, "Temperanceville," for a short time.
I think we are still in transition. My mother's generation (silent), and my older sister's generation (early boomer) IMO were the traditional SAH wife/mother IMO. I think the boomers began moving into the workforce when their kids were school age. By genX and millennials fewer women were SAHMs and the norm was to only take off a few years when the kids are young and for more women not at all. The trend continues.
So for Genz and Gen Alpha that is traditional as more couples have adopted the equal income/equal childcare marriage.
Of course Covid caused a blip, the childcare situation isn't helping and of course now we have millions more illegal immigrants who tend to lean more towards mothers as SAHMs.
I think that there are two different transitions going on simultaneously. There is the desire for more egalitarian relationships especially among women and there is the rise women having kids without being married. 40 percent of all births happen to unmarried women,
Women are far outpacing men educationally. Women are both more likely to go to college than men and the men that do go to college are more likely to drop out than women, so we are probably pretty close to a 60/40 female to male graduation rate from college.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxic Waltz
Most women don't want a house husband.
I agree with this. First I agree with the points Sonic made here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
The only issues I've ever had with the idea, are that first of all I'm not sure I have much faith in a man doing this kind of thing to my standards. I have yet to meet a man who kept his own bathroom properly clean. The men I've had in my life in any way (not just romantically) do not seem to care that much about keeping a home clean.
I don't have much faith in relationships being egalitarian in practice. I see a stay at home Dad as more likely to function in practice as an extra adult kid. I don't think a stay a home dad is going to be an aid in raising kids as much as just another task, I have to take on. So I am not real interested in it.
If a guy can support a wife to take care of the kids when they are young, that can work, but the opposite I don't trust. When the kids are young, I also don't trust daycare.The people who provide this service aren't paid well and I worry about what happens to my kids when I am not around.
There are also issues with guys in this situation being more likely to cheat. Who needs that?
I think these issues are are also behind the rise in women having kids without being married. If you are dating a guy but he makes less money than you, and you don't think he's going to do his fair share to help raise the kid, maybe you decide you're better off not actually married to him, but your fertility window is closing so you decide to have a kid anyways.
But there is also this problem where there are more young women than young men that are well educated So it's tough to find guys to date who are suitable to actually marry right now.
It's not like that anymore. I was in shop class in the early 90s and I loved it. Working with wood and metal. I was in northern VA...more urban but not geographically that far from where you were. A few boys took home ec, too.
And I was required to take physics and chemistry in high school. That was also the case when we moved to a more rural part of VA, a town literally called, "Temperanceville," for a short time.
I realize that. It is also somewhat, I guess, "cultural" instead of geographic. When I was in middle school (Dayton Ohio) all students were required to take a home economics class and a shop class. North vs South, rural vs urban?
I live near a Mennonite community (off shoot of Amish). I used a Mennonite farrier for years. He had two young daughters that he would bring with him sometimes. I made the offhand comment about his daughters taking over his business (he had been talking about retiring from the trade). He looked at me like I had grown horns and let me know that was not acceptable work for females. I dont think he ever felt comfortable taking female clients. A few years later I found a great female farrier.
The point is really how much social norms have changed (during my life) and how more lax gender roles are. Some seem to think these things do not change because of our "wiring" but this just shows how much they have and there is no reason to think they wont continue to do so.
Originally Posted by Toxic Waltz
Most women don't want a house husband. They like the idea of it maybe but not the reality. Not unless they get to have a real man on the side...but then again maybe that's the point. ... Maybe women dream of having a soy man at home tending to the kids and a real man they can play with when that other guy isn't looking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
I believe that if you're doing it right, being a stay at home parent is a lot of work. And the men I have known, instead see it as an opportunity to do as little work as possible, preferably right around "none at all."
That's just being taken advantage of. Who wants that? With no purpose in life, he wallowed in self loathing....... And I do suspect that most people need to feel like they are doing something with their lives.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damnitjanet
I don't have much faith in relationships being egalitarian in practice. I see a stay at home Dad as more likely to function in practice as an extra adult kid. I don't think a stay a home dad is going to be an aid in raising kids as much as just another task, I have to take on. So I am not real interested in it.
There is a common theme here that men are not only looked down upon by much of society for being a nurturing parent and/or taking care of the home and domestic duties, heck they are not even considered men, as pointed out by Toxic, but they are not trusted either.
And I think the reason for that is that still women and women's contribution in the big scheme of things is looked down upon and dismissed as irrelevant. The worst part is that women are expected to be ok with it and it is not even considered that they may want/need a life outside of kids and domestic duties.
Sonic, you said it. "with no purpose in life". This dreaded stay at home gig is to be a woman's purpose in life (or so we have been told since antiquity), but for a man it equates to having no purpose in life. And people think we are wired that way due to gender. I think some people are wired that way and some people are not but it is society that makes us accept those roles according to gender and to feel ashamed, inferior, and unworthy if we dont, not gender.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
