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Oh yes, how nice and merciful of god to have his "son" tortured and maimed and then murdered. That's not something we celebrate in civilized societies. Also, this whole "mercy" aspect of god has been vastly overhyped. He talks this good game about being all loving and all merciful yet when push comes to shove he's a petty tyrant who, if the bible is to be believed, well end up sentencing the vast majority of humanity to endless cruel torment in hell.
The fact of the matter is there is absolutely no way to prove or disprove god, but I find it more likely than not that god doesn't exist just based on the evidence out there. I plan to live my life to the fullest of my ability and be the best father, husband, son, and citizen that I can be. I plan on treating everyone I encounter with the same measure of respect I am would like. I will try to be the best person I can be in no hope of any reward in the hereafter. If I die and I'm wrong and god does exist and the life I lived is not enough for him so be it. I'll have done everything I was capable of, oh well.
Technically the crucifixion was a sacrifice and not a murder and technically it was Himself He was sacrificing and oh yeah, there is the whole resurrection thing and sitting at the right hand of the father and becoming king of heaven. Then there is the whole reason for it. (John 3:16 which if you have studied or if you at least watch football then I am sure you are already familiar with).
You say you will "have done everything I was capable of". But YOU don't have to do anything other than have faith. Christ has done the work for you. You say you have studied it with your intellect and your reason. But that alone isn't enough. And if you have studied then you know that.
Have you ever read The Case for Christ? It is a remarkable book. Have you ever read the theological writings of C.S. Lewis? Or the sermons of John Donne?
Japan has a minor Christian population. Their major alternate religion is Shinto. It also has many many atheists, and Buddhists.
This morning, the fifth-most-massive earthquake in the past 100+ years, an estimated 8.9 on the Richter Scale, hit Japan with a geological epicenter near Tokyo. The consequences will be enormous and long-term, requiring the concentrated financial and spiritual help of America and the rest of the caring Western world. (I wonder if the Muslim world will also provide any aid? Let's watch for that!).
Our thoughts, and prayers if you wish, should be with these fine people in this monumental tragedy.
Peace and Love!
No but God will come one of these mornings , when ?, I obviously don't know but death is like a thief in the night.
Technically the crucifixion was a sacrifice and not a murder and technically it was Himself He was sacrificing and oh yeah, there is the whole resurrection thing and sitting at the right hand of the father and becoming king of heaven. Then there is the whole reason for it. (John 3:16 which if you have studied or if you at least watch football then I am sure you are already familiar with).
There was no need for a human sacrifice. That is a pagan concept introduced by the greco/roman pagans. At the alleged time of jesus, the temple sacrifices seemed to be restricted to only doves but sacrifice was still practiced. jesus allegedly instructed some recipients of his miracle cures to go to the high priest and offer a sacrifice and other told to keep quiet. He came for the house of Israel not the gentiles and his alleged ministry was targeted at the Jews. All his alleged followers were Jews.
The Jews rejected him as his teachings ran counter to the law of moses. His crucifixion was the death penalty of insurrectionists of the day. He broke 3 of the laws and was found guilty of them. He made himself equal to god which was a big no no. The Jews were not allowed to carry out their mosaic laws w/o approval of the roman occupiers, whose law now ruled the land.
You claim he sacrificed himself now sits at the right hand of himself - how is that possible? Your trinity doctrine only came about much later in about 400CE another pagan concept adopted by the romans.
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You say you will "have done everything I was capable of". But YOU don't have to do anything other than have faith. Christ has done the work for you. You say you have studied it with your intellect and your reason. But that alone isn't enough. And if you have studied then you know that.
Well then it is a done deal is it not? Did he not say it is finished? We cannot add to or take anything away from this apparent salvation. Even if we disbelieve, then his mission was a failure. We cannot pretend to believe in that which lacks empirical evidence.
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Have you ever read The Case for Christ? It is a remarkable book. Have you ever read the theological writings of C.S. Lewis? Or the sermons of John Donne?
This only appeals to believers in an apologetic form, anyone that has really studied xianity outside the paradigms is not moved by either of these books.
If everything was so self evident, there would be no need for books of this meme and the whole world would be xian. There would be no requirement for faith. Faith is anyway listed as one of the nine gifts so you have to buy into the BS before you can have faith. Does not really jive that the gifts are irrevocable as how then do atheists lose their faith?
I guess satan deceived us and thus we return to the idea that satan in more omni-everything than god is and his hs gifts are mere ineffective placebos we receive w/o any power.
According to your scriptures, the promise of doing greater miracles etc. walking in the malls, your mere presence should cause the manifestation of demonic forces - does that happen? No!
Thus the hs you are allegedly filled with has absolutely no power. Peter's shadow healed a leper. Miracles are supposed to follow those that believe
- it does not happen. I do see believers following the miracles, Benny Hinn, the tattooed dude from Canada that kicked people in the face (forget his name), yup, even some folk from my country flew to Florida to see him. People are so hungry for the real deal that does not exist they will believe anything for confirmation. It is all a huge scam. As I understand it, Benny Hinn's wife left him or is in the process of doing so, either way there are problems.
These are your modern day prophets and just like king David who was the apple of gods eye blew it with Bethsheba (sp? Uriah's wife), these modern prophets still fail because there is no hs that is all powerful. Only the preachers become powerful. They are the ones that can lead folk like you around by the nose and get away with it. It has been happening for millenia.
Thus, satan still remains the all powerful as he gets all the blame. Problem is, he does not exist either.
The excuse that man is imperfect and only jesus was perfect does not fly, we do not even know if he actually existed. There are no xian role models, the ones referred to are usually already dead or the media did not have time to reveal they were simply ordinary folk with no special gift except that of a con man.
Japan has a minor Christian population. Their major alternate religion is Shinto. It also has many many atheists, and Buddhists.
This morning, the fifth-most-massive earthquake in the past 100+ years, an estimated 8.9 on the Richter Scale, hit Japan with a geological epicenter near Tokyo. The consequences will be enormous and long-term, requiring the concentrated financial and spiritual help of America and the rest of the caring Western world. (I wonder if the Muslim world will also provide any aid? Let's watch for that!).
Our thoughts, and prayers if you wish, should be with these fine people in this monumental tragedy.
Peace and Love!
I'm sure someone will come out of the "crazy closet" and blame "the gays" for this......give them time>>>>>
That is no how it works...It is up to believers to prove that god does exist, and so far in more than 2000 years of trying believers have failed.
Proving that God exists has never been the defined purpose of Christ, nor the commission of those within mainstream Christianity. This is the reason that the word of God is seldomly, if ever, debated productively. These frequent 'is not' 'is too', debates which succeed in conveying no surprising results, probably do more to provoke dissension than to enlighten.
In reference to the original post, those who are Christians and are familiar with the Word of God, know that it was foretold in the book of Matthew (Chptr 24), by Christ, that there would be earthquakes in diverse places. He never stated that these events were coming because of a particular act or the actions of a certain body of people, or nation.
I know of one Firefighter who responded to the Twin Towers tragedy and later developed a very serious lung condition. This individual was a Christian prior to 9/11 and is a Christian to this day. His own suffering was the natural result of very unfortunate circumstances. The notion that God is hurling lightning bolts toward areas of concentrated evil is mythical, but useful fodder for those intolerant of Christianity, and those with an intent to express contempt for Christians and God. I am not, however, completely convinced that these events always occur without spiritual involvement. To add a slightly different perspective, for those of us who commit to the belief in a spiritual adversary, while sin may not induce destructive judgment from God, it very well may provide opportunities for satan or his kingdom to wreak havoc on the earth. In at least one portion of scripture satan is referred to as the prince of the powers of the air. Whether this is a reference to having limited power of the earthly elements is not certain, but it is a possibility. One thing that is certain, satan has a desire to destroy. Scripture refers to this entity as one who is intent on killing, stealing and destroying.
Oddly enough, there is a portion of scripture which talks about a tower which fell in Jerusalem, killing 18 people. Jesus asked the question, "do you think that these 18 people were more guilty than all the others in Jerusalem" ? He was certainly implying that these deaths were not to be construed as a judgment for their sin.
Using fear of judgment as a tool to win people to Christ has lost it's value among Christians with understanding. I am in no way discrediting scriptures elaborating on the existence of hell or the fact that, according to Christian belief, a day of judgment will come, but this information does little to lead others out of sinful lifestyles, and conversions produced from these tactics tend to be disingenous and short lived. Foxhole religious experiences typically lack sincerity.
In the Church where I attend, there is no membership registry to speak of. Everyone is welcome, whether visiting out of curiosity, searching for a new place to worship, or experiencing hard times, the arms of the church are open to all. The church has grown over the years, but not to the point of allowing visitors to be ignored. There are no prequalifications or interrogations. If there is any judgment or condemnation, it is usually what people are heaping upon themselves unjustly. Every part of the bible is believed to be true, but it is also believed that God prepares the heart, and that salvation is not a work of convincing eloquence, or clever tactics, but the work of faith and the Holy Spirit, and individuals who accept Jesus Christ are clearly not there to make an argument in favor of their past lifestyle.
Sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ is not/should not be, an arm wrestling match, with the winner being the one with the most bible facts, or supporting evidence, but rather, it is simply recognizing those divine opportunities God creates, for those who are genuinely seeking the truth. I would love to end this with a saying like 'to each his own' or 'Christianity isn't for everyone', (for the benefit of present unbelievers), but as a Christian I believe there is only one way to Heaven, through Jesus Christ, but this is not the time of divine judgment, but of Grace, and each person will live their lives and will make their choices.
Last edited by Pennsylvanian1; 03-13-2011 at 05:20 AM..
Are any Christians here like me and simply think God doesn't make things like this happen on earth, but rather allows them to, based on a natural order that he created? I don't think there's any hidden lining in any of this.
What part of this planet being 4.5 billion years old and the first species of manlike creatures showing up a couple of million years ago is it that gives you the most heartburn? The Hawaian Islands are some of the newest soil bearing territories anywhere on earth...created when volcanos erupted from the bottom of the Pacific ocean and raised up to leave new mountains. There are solid lava beaches and numerous areas where hundreds of small fissures continuously vent steam. There is one active volvano erupting there as we speak.
It took me a long time to get over the concept that in six days about six thousand years ago a god created everything and that two naked teens in a garden with a snake and apple determined the eternal destiny of all of us...but I did.
If there is a god somewhere he/she/it obviously doesn't give a tinker's dam what happens here.
Last edited by Melvin.George; 03-13-2011 at 04:40 AM..
..intolerant of Christianity, and those with an intent to express contempt for Christians and God.
The problem here is that this idea of tolerance is not mutual and hence the attacks. Were you guy prepared to obey Jn6:44, and wait for the sinners to come to your churches, we atheists would have peace with that. That would be the free choice of those. However, the thing is so big it is a monster that needs to be opposed. The bible has so many conflicting doctrines so on the one hand it tells us no one can come unless drawn and then you are told to go proselytize actively.
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but this information does little to lead others out of sinful lifestyles, and conversions produced from these tactics tend to be disingenous and short lived. Foxhole religious experiences typically lack sincerity.
This sinful lifestyle is one that still puzzles me. Who gets to define this alleged sinful lifestyle? What is a sinful lifestyle? I am straight and with my 1st wife and only smoke. What am I doing wrong that makes me a sinner?
I do not believe in god(s)
I guess like anyone I could do better in certain aspects of my life but I do not need a god for that, some areas I am just lazy.
Although your post was gentle and I assume sincere, the problem always arises when one has to define the rules. If you have to default to the OT commandments to achieve this then you shoot yourself in the foot as even your text suggests no one is w/o sin and all have transgressed the law. What significance is a 3500 old law of hebrews relevant to me today? I am not a Jew. I obey the laws of the land as best I can, I sometimes speed so I will not pretend that I do it 100%.
These are the valid questions.
If I pass the sniff test, then I suppose we move onto gays. That is the only thing else that is classified as a sinful lifestyle and again using the commandments (not the ten) to justify this bigotry. Being gay is not a choice. Using the other 620 laws of moses one has to then apply them in their entirety which would include stoning disobedient children and adulterers and according to the NT, that will mean 50-55% of all xians who are with their second or third spouse after divorce.
You go thin out your own population and deal with these sins oh and there a plenty more lesser crimes requiring banishment or stoning which would result in death. Once your population of believers is thinned out 90% or so, you can then start to preach to the rest of humankind. The remaining 10% will of course all be up on murder charges so we will wait till you get out of prison if you are lucky to avoid the death penalty in your state.
Not possible?
Well we hold you to the same standards preached to us. We probably know the bible and your laws better than most xians do. Most of left the faith because we discovered the lies behind the facade. None of us went out whoring, killing or whatever after dissing the faith.
As much as your post seems gentle and sincere, there are huge holes in it. This is what the xian doctrine does. There is no clear cut way and folk simply tailor it to suit themselves.
This system of control, perceived sincerity is subjective to the observer. Only by projection of your own take, can you make someone believe they need saving, when all fails, the hell card is played.
Here is a question that in light of the threat of walking out of church and being run over by a bus scenario alter call any xian is welcome to answer.
A stranger responds to the alter call, says the magic prayer, get baptized in water immediately, maybe even in the hs and gets tongues and then never sets foot inside a church again, nor reads a bible, never prays and you never see this stranger again say he moves the next day. Is that stranger saved or not?
I can say that Christians believe that it will only get worse and end time events will make what has happened in Japan look absolutely tame by comparison.
What's sad about that is the number of Christians that are jumping up and down and clapping their hands like excited little girls with each new natural disaster at the prospect of them meeting their Jesus. Sick or what?
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Originally Posted by calgirlinnc
God made the teutonic plates; it stands to reason that He can then shift them as He sees fit.
I wonder if you'd feel the same had you been living in Japan and just lost everything...including all your family.
Why do you assume that if you are wrong that it is no big deal? Also, why do you assume that those are the only 2 possibilities......that either YOUR god exists, or he doesn't?
What if the "one true god" is not the christian god? What if he gives second chances to those who did not worship any gods, but eternally punishes those who praised and worshiped other gods?
Likewise, what if muslims and jews are correct in their assessment that christians are committing idolatry by holding a man (jesus) as co-equal with the one true god, Yahweh? Yahweh is a jealous god who does not take idolatry lightly. It appears that you are taking just as much of a risk (or more) in your beliefs.
Oh, perish the thought!
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