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I'm grateful to live in a land where we have the opportunity to learn from the mistakes of those who went before us, where we are free to nurture our own beliefs, and where we can expand our worlds by learning about those whose background, beliefs and cultures are different from ours and still remain friends.
A happy Thanksgiving Day to ALL my fellow Americans.
Well I didn't mean to stir this up or to cause any disrespect but the title said " The real meaning of Thanksgiving" and then Walter went on to explain something about it being a religious holiday and that the Pilgrims were the original people to start the custom of Thanksgiving when that is not really true. Long before the Europeans came to this land the native people have always had the custom of Thanksgiving, we would celebrate the harvest Moon and thank the Creator for a bountiful harvest and in doing so we would have a big feast that would last for a few days and invite everybody to partake. Now the Pilgrims apparently had witness one of these festivals and borrowed the idea from the native people that helped them survive their first year in this land, so you see, the native people had this custom long before the Europeans did. I just wanted to sort of set the record straight.
This is the story we learned many many years ago in school and we learned respect for the Native Americans..And we learned to remember their role in teaching the white man how to survive off the bounty of the land..
This is the story we learned many many years ago in school and we learned respect for the Native Americans..And we learned to remember their role in teaching the white man how to survive off the bounty of the land..
Yes, so did we. The Indians helping the Pilgrims learn to plant and fertilize their crops (and introducing them to foods with which they were not familiar) was always part of the "First Thanksgiving" story taught in elementary school.
As someone pointed out, harvest festivals go back far into the shadows of prehistory in probably most cultures that ever existed on the planet. This one's just particularly the American version, and like most nationalistic stories, romanticized over time.
I'm sure that even in the pre-European NDN harvest festivals, there were times when a crotchety old aunt said the wrong thing and a food fight broke out! People are people.
Walter, it's also the day of mourning for all Native People. It also it is a day to remember that your thanksgiving would never have been, had it not been for the native people.
I have heard that, but I don't think it has to be about Pilgrims stealing your ways or whatever.
Many different cultures had a harvest festival of Thanksgiving. You mention those of the native peoples, but there were other cultures that had them too. Today, well yesterday now, in Japan they had "Labor Thanksgiving" which apparently descends from an old holiday called Niiname-sai. Jews have Sukkot and Zoroastrians have the harvest festival of Mehregan, although both of these seem to commonly be in October.
All that said enjoy these two American-Indian themed Christina Ricci skewering/rants on the holiday.
Last edited by Thomas R.; 11-23-2011 at 10:26 PM..
Seems as though the white majority want to claim ownership of this wondrous day! Not to mention the various religions. I'm going to go with the native Americans (the so-called but accurately so, First Nations. This is a phrase used in Canada. Is it also used here in the US? I haven't heard that one.
Ptsum? Your thoughts on that phrase? (btw, where I was born, in Vancouver, Canada, the native tribes were of course spiritually and physically tied to the maritime ecology, and they celebrated their bear, deer, salmon (yum!!!) and other seafood resources.)
Anyhow, tomorrow we are going to celebrate what is important to our family, which is: our family diversity and family traditions, the hunting and gathering and food storing heritages of my wife's and my families. We'll be eating a modern-day genetic representative of the wild turkey, probably brought to our ancient attentions by our proud native brethren. Not to mention traditional N. American and probably European vegetables, but modified by the progressive scientific development into their modern relatives.
Oh yeah, and some wine. Thanks Romans and Greeks!
But for us, no mention of any Christian, Jewish or Islamic ideals or mandates will occur. Sorry. Unrelated to our values.
Yeah, all that happened long after the first thanksgiving with the pilgrims.
Why is it that I seem to have to explain this every other year. What you said is simply not so; the Spaniards aside...
So, you honestly think that the deterioration in relations between the whites and the native tribes didn't start until the 18th or 19th Century? You better check your history. You couldn't be MORE wrong about that.
It is thought that the first Thanksgiving was held in October of 1621. In May of 1622, Myles Standish himself, organized a militia to defend a new settlement named Wessagussett against a rumored native threat from the Massachusett tribe. When Standish took his militia to Wessagussett, he found that there had been no attack.
Rather than go home, he decided on a pre-emptive strike. In an act of duplicity at its finest by these fine upstanding spiritual Christian folk, Standish lured two important Massachusett war chiefs into a house at Wessagussett under the pretense of sharing a meal and making negotiations. Standish and his men then stabbed and killed the two unsuspecting chiefs. The local sachem (a sachem is a top tribal leader among NE tribes), named Obtakiest seeing this happen, fled. Standish pursued Obtakiest, but escaped and took three English as prisoners. In retaliation for the killings of the two war chiefs, Obtakiest had the three English prisoners executed.
It didn't take long for the other tribes in the area to hear of this treachery. Many abandoned their villages and fled the area. Such is the beginning of poor relations between Indian people and the whites. In less than a year (7 months since that first Thanksgiving), the Pilgrims turned on the natives. It did not start with 19th Century America....it started with the Pilgrims themselves.
I also recommend you read about the Pequot War (1634-1638) and also King Philip's War (1675-1676). Both the wars were instigated by and directly involved the the good spiritual Christian Pilgrims of Plymouth Colony - the latter executed by the son of William Bradford himself against Metacomet - the son of Massasoit. Massasoit, if you remember, was the one who directly helped the Pilgrims through that first winter. Both these wars ended in displacement of Indian people as well as many being placed into slavery.
Some were shipped to Bermuda or the West Indies, others were enslaved as household servants in Puritan households in Connecticut and Massachusetts Bay. The colonists appropriated Pequot lands under claims of a "just war", and attempted to legally wipe out the Pequot by declaring them extinct and making it a crime to speak the name Pequot. Those few Pequot who managed to evade death or slavery were assigned reservations in Connecticut Colony.
The colonists attributed the success of the massacre and extermination of the Pequot tribe to an act of God:
"Let the whole Earth be filled with his Glory! Thus the LORD was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their Land for an Inheritance."
So much for what you know concerning the treatment of Indian people by the godly people of Plymouth Colony and the Puritans. I'm not here to say abolish Thanksgiving or heap white guilt on anyone, but I am all about making sure the record is straight.
Now...Happy Thanksgiving....eat some turkey and GO COWBOYS!!!!
As I am sure others have pointed out, Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday. Here is some thanksgiving food for thought: Thanksgiving myths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum
Walter, it's also the day of mourning for all Native People. It also it is a day to remember that your thanksgiving would never have been, had it not been for the native people.
Seems as though the white majority want to claim ownership of this wondrous day! Not to mention the various religions. I'm going to go with the native Americans (the so-called but accurately so, First Nations. This is a phrase used in Canada. Is it also used here in the US? I haven't heard that one.
Ptsum? Your thoughts on that phrase? (btw, where I was born, in Vancouver, Canada, the native tribes were of course spiritually and physically tied to the maritime ecology, and they celebrated their bear, deer, salmon (yum!!!) and other seafood resources.)
Have a grande day, friends!
First Nations people....hmmmm... My thoughts on that phrase.... That's interesting rifleman, I've never thought of us as first nation's people although it is probably an accurate statement, I've always thought of myself and other native people by the different tribes we are a part of and whatever we call ourselves, for example, I'm Tsalagi, (pronounced Jah-la-kee) which is probably where the English word Cherokee came from and even though our civilization goes back over 11,000 years on this land, I never considered it as first nation, we're just the people.
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My family's ideals for the day!
