A Personal Challenge - Please PROVE to me that "God" exists

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by tigers84

Nothing that different or newer than what others have offered, surely.

You mean evidence has been offered? I've not seen any..... Perhaps we have different definitions of what evidence is.

We know you and your ilk reject all of it.

Thats because it's not really evidence.

So why would I waste the energy and give you the pleasure, when the response is assured?

That way the error in your thinking can be demonstrated to you, and next time, you'll come better prepared.

I choose to believe there is a creator

Choose really is the key word here. Without the "choosing" to believe, you wouldn't believe, because other than than choice to do so, there is no other reason to.

. The universe is too complex, and our presence too unlikely, for it just to be a matter of blind luck --- for me.

Is it possible you just can't understand how it could happen without a creator? Perhaps you aren't educated enough in the matter, I know I'm not. Not enough to the point that I can put it al together in my mind and have it make complete sense. However, it is far better to search out the truth of the matter rather than to throw my hands up and say some magical sky God did it.

You are free to have another view. Just respect and honor mine

No. You choose to be here as much as anyone, so if you put it out there, it is subject to scrutiny and ridicule.

and dont lecture me on why im wrong. I'm happy with where I am,

As they say, ignorance is bliss. I cant understand why you wouldn't want to know how you're beliefs are wrong. I feel strongly about what I believe, no matter the subject. If I'm wrong about those beliefs though, I would surely want to know that. Why not put your convictions to the test? Are you afraid of what you might find? If they are correct, you should have nothing to fear.

and it in no way harms you or anyone else.

Well that all depends, doesn't it. Are you a Christian? Some other religion? Are you trying to impose on society your religions definition of morality? What is right and wrong? Origins of existence? etc etc? If so, then it does hurt me and others in more ways than one. It promotes ignorance, and not only ignorance, but contentment with that ignorance. It promotes hatred and bigotry, and 1000 other things.

Why this would bother you, or how you would see disabusing me of my position as being your job to improve the world, I have no idea.

You answered that one yourself.... to improve the world.

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by jambo101

6 Pages of responses and no ones convinced me god exists.
Whats the plan B?

Thanks for post 23..Whippersnapper, one of the more logical posts of the topic..

Pray for your immortal soul, I would imagine.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by tigers84

Please ignore this, people. He wants god proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Despite your poor attempt to censor another poster, I do somewhat agree with you. Asking for that much "proof" is a little too ambitious a request.

I for example never ask people to "prove" there is a god. I ask them to provide even the first shred of argument, evidence, data or reasons to even begin to support with a modicum of credence that there is a god.

Despite that request being MUCH easier than "proof" however the kind of answers I have gotten over the last 17 years are pretty poor and range everything from "You have to find it yourself" to "Stop being so offensive" or some other variation on the theme of claiming there is lots of evidence but the speaker, for whatever reason, does not appear moved to share it.

Originally Posted by tigers84

Wrong. Faith is required in situations where there is not 100% certainty. Faith that the plane will not crash. Faith in your spouse that they aren't cheating. If you know something you don't need faith.

There is never 100% certainty. Things like science are built on that knowledge in fact. We do not split the world into 100% certainty and everything else.

Things are split across a continuum instead. At one end there are the things that there is simply no reason whatsoever on offer to believe. Such as the claim there is a god. At the other end are things we are so relatively sure about that there is likely no way we can ever get more sure about them, but that does not mean they are 100% either. Along that continuum rest many other things all at different levels of certainty and probability.

Faith is not required in planes not crashing for example. When we board a plane we know very well there is a probability of it's crashing. What we have is not faith, but a probability based assessment of the relative risks of using the plane compared to on one hand the benefits of using it and on the other hand the relative risks of other forms of transport.

Originally Posted by tigers84

What I really don't understand is why some atheists are so determined to disabuse believers of their beliefs.

And what I do not get is why you would come to a forum SPECIFICALLY designed to discuss religious topics in general and then systematically get offended every time people do just that. If you do not want to see the topic discussed then I question the wisdom of having chosen to come here in the first place. Trying to derail just about every thread you enter by changing the subject to how terribly offended you feel yourself to be is not helping anything. Least of all your credibility. It would be like going to a boxing match and moaning about how people insist on hitting each other.

[TRANSPONDER]

Thank you for fielding that one Nozz...I groan inwardly when I see the whiskery old 'you have Faith your car will start..' argument.

It seems that we have some referral back to 'proofs' which we did not accept (I don't recall seeing any) some semantic dickering about %100 proof which is simply dishonest. Any reasonable person will know that we are asking for some evidence that will make the God -case probable rather than at best, a remotely possible undisprovable Only A Theory.

Instead we get the dishonest and fallacious old arguments - atheists have faith, too. (Faith in sound reasoning and evidence - not in unsupported myths) accusations of wanting unreasonable amounts of evidence (there hasn't been any reasonable amount presented) and of course - 'why don't you atheists just shut up and leave us to our delusions?'

At least we didn't see the 'have you looked everywhere in the universe? Atheists must be claiming all knowledge' rubbish. That really would have brought on my heartburn.

[KCfromNC]

Originally Posted by tigers84

Nothing that different or newer than what others have offered, surely. We know you and your ilk reject all of it. So why would I waste the energy and give you the pleasure, when the response is assured? That really would be stupid of me.

This logical fallacy is known as poisoning the well. It's a specific type of ad hominem, where the person presenting it preemptively launches personal attacks at his opponent rather than addressing the issue. Read more about it here : Poisoning the well - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[KCfromNC]

Originally Posted by jambo101

6 Pages of responses and no ones convinced me god exists.
Whats the plan B?

Apparently, personal attacks for even daring to ask the question. Good thing they don't have the power to burn heretics at the stake anymore...