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John: "If you do not lobby/filibuster for my lifestyle you are my enemy!"
Jane: .
The evident effort to discredit we godless erbots shows that we are the 'opposition' as far as your kind of theist goes. I would much rather (and often do) engage in co -operative discussion with theists.
In fact i have been keeping a term in mind for when it becomes appropriate and it may be so now -'I have seen a rocky start. am willing to go back and start again'.
But that does mean that we need an open -minded discussion of relevant facts, not starting out by opposition - bashing.
Mind, I think that all that could be said in this particular subject has been said. The possibility of a god of some kind will not be ruled out by science. The sound reasons to believe in such a god will very likely be ruled out.
It depends on how you define God...
Will Science someday rule out the possibility of a grandpa in the sky?
Yes.
Will Science someday rule out the possibility of a creative energy based in higher dimensions (aka above the dimension of time)?
Not while there is us created beings to consider creation around us.
Will science someday define God in more appropriate terms, like creative energy?
I have hope.
I don't, but I don't mind that you do. I am open to the possibility. I am even interested. Perhaps even like the idea. But I don't have a vested interest in it being true.
I'd like to say that I have no vested interest in it NOT being true, but that wouldn't be quite right. While the personal gods including Biblegod are, as you say, as unbelievable as Grandpa in the sky, it is true that a sorta god of the kind you describe being shown probable by science would immediately become a tiresome jump -off for all sorts of personal divine being - revelation claims.
The evident effort to discredit we godless erbots shows that we are the 'opposition' as far as your kind of theist goes. I would much rather (and often do) engage in co -operative discussion with theists.
In fact i have been keeping a term in mind for when it becomes appropriate and it may be so now -'I have seen a rocky start. am willing to go back and start again'.
But that does mean that we need an open -minded discussion of relevant facts, not starting out by opposition - bashing.
Mind, I think that all that could be said in this particular subject has been said. The possibility of a god of some kind will not be ruled out by science. The sound reasons to believe in such a god will very likely be ruled out.
And just what kind of theist am I? The kind that can't promote homosexuality as evolutionary advantageous (trait) but isn't about the stone anybody?
And what concern are the Godless to me? I don't care who's Godless or not, if there is a hell do you really think I care if you burn in it or not? What a huge ego!!!! It's the rude and obnoxious zealots whom I have disdain for.
My kind of theist. wow! The kind that can actually live a life with the possibility of a Creator?! I'am sorry my life is not so murked-up I need for there to be no God.
I'am okay with being worm food and I'am okay with there being a God.
And just what kind of theist am I? The kind that can't promote homosexuality as evolutionary advantageous (trait) but isn't about the stone anybody?
And what concern are the Godless to me? I don't care who's Godless or not, if there is a hell do you really think I care if you burn in it or not? What a huge ego!!!! It's the rude and obnoxious zealots whom I have disdain for.
My kind of theist. wow! The kind that can actually live a life with the possibility of a Creator?! I'am sorry my life is not so murked-up I need for there to be no God.
I'am okay with being worm food and I'am okay with there being a God.
My kind of theist wow!
Your kind of theist is one who trumpets bigotry stopping short of murder as tolerance, your contempt (expressed in many a post - I thought you had a life ?) for anyone who does not share your beliefs presented as live and let -live indifference and the kind who swipes aside anything resembling an olive branch impatiently and slags off anyone who does not need a God- belief as someone who needs to not need to have a God belief.
I don't, but I don't mind that you do. I am open to the possibility. I am even interested. Perhaps even like the idea. But I don't have a vested interest in it being true.
I'd like to say that I have no vested interest in it NOT being true, but that wouldn't be quite right. While the personal gods including Biblegod are, as you say, as unbelievable as Grandpa in the sky, it is true that a sorta god of the kind you describe being shown probable by science would immediately become a tiresome jump -off for all sorts of personal divine being - revelation claims.
Arequipa,
Let's pretend to be logical, for a bit - after all, isn't that why you claim to not believe in anything that is not provable?
I don't have any proof that what I believe you to be (a picture in your profile, sitting outside with drinks), is really the cause of the post I am responding to. The post could be a robotic entry, or it could be from Rowan Atkinson, for all I know. I have no way of proving YOU, but I do have evidence that someone or something made "real" influence (depending on how much I let your post influence me), that is in the form of yet more symbols - letters typed on this forum.
Does my understanding of and response to the post marked by "Arequipa" really depend on understanding exactly who you are? Not really, unless I decided that I wanted to become more involved with you... If that were the case, I would need to understand if you matched with my impression of you. But even then, let's say we got married and only discovered after years of marriage & a nasty divorce that our interpretations of each others' personas were both way off from reality.
Creation is staring you in the face, Arequipa.
Denying it is silly.
Yes, some ideas of creation are based on illusion, yet the belief in illusion causes real influence.
And some illusions are more functional than others (illusions that are in more harmony with both reality & goals).
Defining God as so many orthodox Atheists do (a rebelious definiton from Theology) is also silly, as well as dishonest & unhelpful.
God is a 3 letter word, that symbolizes real creative aspects we don't understand completely &/or what we worship (how we express our creativity), or our "ultimate concern."
To say you understand everything speaks of more denial.
To say that you don't care about some things more than other things is also a lie.
Last edited by SuperSoul; 09-23-2012 at 10:42 AM..
It will not, And as another poster said science is based on evidence. But I propose this question:
If there is a "God", what is it? An advanced civilization? Super-intelligent being? intelligent matter? Or something else. And who or what would have created it/him/her/them? The questions are endless.
It will not, And as another poster said science is based on evidence. But I propose this question:
If there is a "God", what is it? An advanced civilization? Super-intelligent being? intelligent matter? Or something else. And who or what would have created it/him/her/them? The questions are endless.
Yes, the questions are endless!
It's both frustrating & exciting, depending on your perspective.
I think it's so much about perspective.
The OP hinted at time & what's beyond that...
I've been thinking about 5th dimension possibilities.
Actually, I tend to think it is about possibilities, as well as multiple perspectives (depth beyond 3-D and time/space depth) and consciousness movement. It may have aspects of time travel and probability, more so the latter, IMO.
Some say the closest way of explaining the 5th dimension is through dreams we experience... which involve illusions that may have no scientific means of measurement, but nevertheless have real influence (Ie good or bad dreams affecting how we feel when we wake up). Others say that the 5th dimension is about possibilities... ie, if when you were young, you moved to another country, it is likely that your entire life would have branched off in a completely different way from that one change.
What do you think is the next logical (or illogical but real) dimension, beyond the 4th dimension (space/time)?
As far as who God is, I think God is "the most active verb of all" & thus is not "set in stone", but is dynamic & our experience & definition of God depends on how we decide to express our creative potential.
Last edited by SuperSoul; 09-23-2012 at 11:07 AM..
Arequipa,
Let's pretend to be logical, for a bit -
I have a better idea. let's try to be logical, all the time.
Quote:
after all, isn't that why you claim to not believe in anything that is not provable?
Near enough
Quote:
I don't have any proof that what I believe you to be (a picture in your profile, sitting outside with drinks), is really the cause of the post I am responding to. The post could be a robotic entry, or it could be from Rowan Atkinson, for all I know. I have no way of proving YOU, but I do have evidence that someone or something made "real" influence (depending on how much I let your post influence me), that is in the form of yet more symbols - letters typed on this forum.
Does my understanding of and response to the post marked by "Arequipa" really depend on understanding exactly who you are? Not really, unless I decided that I wanted to become more involved with you... If that were the case, I would need to understand if you matched with my impression of you. But even then, let's say we got married and only discovered after years of marriage & a nasty divorce that our interpretations of each others' personas were both way off from reality.
I get your point. Logically, unless you have reason to doubt what I have presented as close to fact, you would take it as the best explanation and would certainly assert that someone is posting, even if it wasn't the bod in the pic. And let's face it, if I was going to post someone who wasn't me, wouldn't have picked someone more like to turn the ladies on?
Quote:
Creation is staring you in the face, Arequipa.
Denying it is silly.
That's where the logic suddenly flew out of the window. There is perfect validity in questioning Creation. For a start just what one means by that. Of course there were reasons why anything occurred, but, since so much that was once believed to be unaccountable other than by an act of will has been shown to be likely to have occurred without it, isn't the question whether any of it needed an act of will legitimate?
Quote:
Yes, some ideas of creation are based on illusion, yet the belief in illusion causes real influence.
And some illusions are more functional than others (illusions that are in more harmony with both reality & goals).
Defining God as so many orthodox Atheists do (a rebelious definiton from Theology) is also silly, as well as dishonest & unhelpful.
God is a 3 letter word, that symbolizes real creative aspects we don't understand completely &/or what we worship (how we express our creativity), or our "ultimate concern."
To say you understand everything speaks of more denial.
To say that you don't care about some things more than other things is also a lie.
Let me put aside some snappish rejoinders and simply say that the kind of Creation argument that says that science is wrong, the Bible is right, The God and Jesus as described therein is true and we are all pretty much obliged to believe it or we are dead wrong if not sinners deserving of divine punishment, is indeed what I care about more than a possible creative impulse which we might arguably label God, and if you suppose that I am lying about that I will say that you do not know what you are talking about, you do not know me and how very dare you?
Yes, the questions are endless!
It's both frustrating & exciting, depending on your perspective.
I think it's so much about perspective.
The OP hinted at time & what's beyond that...
I've been thinking about 5th dimension possibilities.
Actually, I tend to think it is about possibilities, as well as multiple perspectives (depth beyond 3-D and time/space depth) and consciousness movement. It may have aspects of time travel and probability, more so the latter, IMO.
Some say the closest way of explaining the 5th dimension is through dreams we experience... which involve illusions that may have no scientific means of measurement, but nevertheless have real influence (Ie good or bad dreams affecting how we feel when we wake up). Others say that the 5th dimension is about possibilities... ie, if when you were young, you moved to another country, it is likely that your entire life would have branched off in a completely different way from that one change.
What do you think is the next logical (or illogical but real) dimension, beyond the 4th dimension (space/time)?
As far as who God is, I think God is "the most active verb of all" & thus is not "set in stone", but is dynamic & our experience & definition of God depends on how we decide to express our creative potential.
An alternate reality perhaps, Maybe a plane with extensions of ourselves or related entities. Terrance McKenna explored this subject though more esoterically.
I have a better idea. let's try to be logical, all the time.
Near enough
Nobody's always 100% logical, Arequipa!
Nobody's all knowing, yet we illude ourselves into thinking we know more than we don't know & that what we know is accurate, when it is only the tip of the iceberg.
Quote:
I get your point. Logically, unless you have reason to doubt what I have presented as close to fact, you would take it as the best explanation and would certainly assert that someone is posting, even if it wasn't the bod in the pic. And let's face it, if I was going to post someone who wasn't me, wouldn't have picked someone more like to turn the ladies on?
LOL Probability gets complicated... what if you wanted it to be someone believable?
Anyway, you look fine & more importantly have a good heart, beneath all of the illusions.
Quote:
That's where the logic suddenly flew out of the window. There is perfect validity in questioning Creation. For a start just what one means by that. Of course there were reasons why anything occurred, but, since so much that was once believed to be unaccountable other than by an act of will has been shown to be likely to have occurred without it, isn't the question whether any of it needed an act of will legitimate?
Does our life's happiness really depend on proving what is unprovable?
If so, what a frustrating existence!
We have been created, this world exists out somewhere among other universes - I see no benefit from denying that.
Quote:
Let me put aside some snappish rejoinders and simply say that the kind of Creation argument that says that science is wrong, the Bible is right, The God and Jesus as described therein is true and we are all pretty much obliged to believe it or we are dead wrong if not sinners deserving of divine punishment, is indeed what I care about more than a possible creative impulse which we might arguably label God, and if you suppose that I am lying about that I will say that you do not know what you are talking about, you do not know me and how very dare you?
Arequipa! You're falling back into herd thinking of orthodox Atheism.
I already know & have heard Atheism dictated beliefs hypnotically regurditated many times.
I'll try to save you from their cultish grip!
You are worshiping Atheism, which IMO, is worse than worshipping Theism.
At least Theism doesn't base it's group-thought on rebelling against another group's illusional thought.
Let it go!
Think for yourself, not regurgitated Atheism BS.
Redefine God in ways that are more healthy for you & others.
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?) for anyone who does not share your beliefs presented as live and let -live indifference and the kind who swipes aside anything resembling an olive branch impatiently and slags off anyone who does not need a God- belief as someone who needs to not need to have a God belief.
