Why are least religious countries much better than religious ones? (God, Christians)

[mensaguy]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

See it's snarky comments like that which only fuel my negative stereotypes. I tell you what, I'll read the threads if you go spend a month in a evangelical church. Maybe if you got to know us and saw what was happening inside the church, you wouldn't paint us all as hateful ignorant bigots.

If you'd go read those threads, you would find out that there are dozens of people posting in them that have spent years, not just a month, in evangelical churches. Don't make excuses, try to make bargains, or cop outs. Go read the threads and learn something.

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by mordant

This is such disordered thinking that it's hard to know where to start, Jeff. I'll just say that atheism is one thing only, not believing in any deities. The relative value of things or the relative right to life of things flows from that somehow in your thinking, but not in reality. PEOPLE (atheists or not) assign value to things. PEOPLE (atheists or not) also assign rights to entities.

Sure the textbook definition is only one thing, but the reality is so much more. I would wager that the vast majority of atheists have made science their god and have 100% complete belief in evolution and abiogenesis as the origin of life and the human race.

Originally Posted by mordant

I assign higher value to my wife than a chicken dinner because she is more valuable to me than a chicken dinner. That is all. You can object that I have no legitimate basis or authority to do so, I suppose, although I don't know what that accomplishes. I still do it, whether you think I should or can or not.

Your personal feelings of self worth and value are irrelevant. The bottom line is that if you are going to claim that we are not created from God and only random products of evolution then all life has equal value and claim on this earth. Including the bug on the street.

Originally Posted by mordant

I suspect your concern is that people COULD choose to, say, assign more importance to a thing than you think they should ... or not assign enough importance to something you think they should. And you need to prevent them from making invalid assignments. Or you claim your god does. Or something. But the simple fact is that everyone assigns value as they see fit, and I think most people assign similar values because they share in the same socially mediated moral and ethical convictions. None of this depends on your dogma or beliefs about it. It happens whether you think it does or not.

My concern is the danger of a Godless society which may someday decide that survival of the species is more important than preserving our individuality. The undeniable truth is that all humans (unlike other animal speices) have an internal need to give and receive love. And that reality doesn't fit in the framework of atheism. It does with Christianity.

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by mensaguy

If you'd go read those threads, you would find out that there are dozens of people posting in them that have spent years, not just a month, in evangelical churches. Don't make excuses, try to make bargains, or cop outs. Go read the threads and learn something.

And what would that accomplish anyways? It would only show me that some people have arrived at atheism through unique personal journeys. When I speak about atheists, I am speaking in generalizations, not proclaiming that I believe every single atheist hates God. I base my conclusions on countless interactions. I would be more likely to have my perception swayed if I could find one, just one friendly non-hostile non-snarky non-arrogant conversation between an evangelical Bible believing Christian and an atheist.

[DewDropInn]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I would be more likely to have my perception swayed if I could find one, just one friendly non-hostile non-snarky non-arrogant conversation between an evangelical Bible believing Christian and an atheist.

Do you like cars, Jeff? Go to the chat thread in the Atheism forum and you'll have the chance to join in a friendly conversation with atheists. And a liberal Christian. (Me. )

Unless you're a Chevy guy and say something snarky about Fords....I can't guarantee how you'll be met if you start dissing Mustangs.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I base my conclusions on countless interactions.

...and the only common denominator in these countless interactions...is him!

[southernbored]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

See it's snarky comments like that which only fuel my negative stereotypes. I tell you what, I'll read the threads if you go spend a month in a evangelical church. Maybe if you got to know us and saw what was happening inside the church, you wouldn't paint us all as hateful ignorant bigots.

Oh, yes, because spending a month in a church is the same as spending a few minutes reading through a few threads.


It is comments like these that get evangelicals made fun of, Jeff. You clearly do not want to learn about belief systems, or non belief, that are not yours. You have no need for knowledge, because you already think you know everything.


For the record, I have spent a great deal of time in churches, and have met people both evangelical and not. And where have I painted "you all" as hateful ignorant bigots? Is lying part of your core beliefs? Because you seem to do so quite a bit about the atheists and other non believers on this board. This is why I suggest you read through those threads. You might gain some insight into others that could be helpful for you, allowing you to have grown up conversations with non believers.


Now, if you don't want to, that is certainly up to you. However, you can never claim you "know atheists" or that you believe in knowledge or education, because you will have shown us that is simply not true.

[southernbored]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

And what would that accomplish anyways? It would only show me that some people have arrived at atheism through unique personal journeys. When I speak about atheists, I am speaking in generalizations, not proclaiming that I believe every single atheist hates God. I base my conclusions on countless interactions. I would be more likely to have my perception swayed if I could find one, just one friendly non-hostile non-snarky non-arrogant conversation between an evangelical Bible believing Christian and an atheist.

You don't get out much, do you?


I am an agnostic/atheist, and I have friendly, non hostile, non snarky, non arrogant conversations with Christians every single day of my life, both evangelical and not. In fact, the majority of my family and friends are Christians, both evangelical and not. The people I work with? Almost entirely Christian. I have no problems with any of them, and very rarely, if ever, have a hostile conversation with any of them. I hate to tell you, but your interactions with people on an online message board are not representative of every atheist in the world like you seem to think. Even if it were, you are still overlooking many posts and posters that are not what you describe.


The problem with your post above, is you seem to think "speaking in generalizations" that paint an entire group of people in a single light, is somehow acceptable if you don't say "all of X group is not S". Why are you "speaking in generalizations" anyways? Especially when you have been shown to lack any knowledge of those you are speaking about, and an unwillingness to learn?

[mordant]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

See it's snarky comments like that which only fuel my negative stereotypes. I tell you what, I'll read the threads if you go spend a month in a evangelical church. Maybe if you got to know us and saw what was happening inside the church, you wouldn't paint us all as hateful ignorant bigots.

Except you forget that many of us spent YEARS in evangelical churches already, and we left BECAUSE you are all hateful ignorant bigots.

Well not really that last bit, but I doubt you'd listen if I didn't play to your Stereotype of Unreasoning Hatred. I, and I suspect most of us, left because we no longer found the apologetics convincing. Something you are chronically unwilling to address in any substantive or effective way.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Sure the textbook definition is only one thing, but the reality is so much more. I would wager that the vast majority of atheists have made science their god and have 100% complete belief in evolution and abiogenesis as the origin of life and the human race.

Well what would be accurate to say is that because the majority of atheists require substantiation for their views (that is why, after all, they're atheists in the first place), they accept proven explanatory frameworks as what is mostly likely to be true. So apart from your biased way of relating it, more or less true about evolution. Abiogenesis on the other hand is not yet proven, it is merely a scientifically valid hypothesis at this point. My position on it is that it or something rather like it will likely be demonstrated to be at least feasible and maybe even repeatable. But in the meantime it is just another unknown, which is in no way an excuse to make up explanations or to accept the assertions of others when those assertions aren't even falsifiable or verifiable.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Your personal feelings of self worth and value are irrelevant.

No actually they are the ONLY thing that IS relevant for me or for anyone who wants to determine what I actually value.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

The bottom line is that if you are going to claim that we are not created from God and only random products of evolution then all life has equal value and claim on this earth. Including the bug on the street.

Perhaps in some abstract sense that has no relation at all to practical every day life I suppose but the simple fact is that I would take a bullet for my wife but have been guilty of killing bugs. When we say that there isn't BESTOWED or GIVEN meaning, purpose or value, that is not the same thing as saying there is NO meaning, purpose or value. That is a statement not about the existence of those things, but about their source.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

My concern is the danger of a Godless society which may someday decide that survival of the species is more important than preserving our individuality.

What does this even mean? If the species dies, individuality is a moot point. Atheists don't have any particular plan or agenda for survival of the species anyway. Atheists are just as capable of self-sacrifice for the greater good as anyone else, and we are all about freedom of thought and respect for the individual. Just because totalitarians have hijacked theist and atheist ideologies for their ends doesn't invalidate either or suggest that either are a prescription for totalitarianism.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

The undeniable truth is that all humans (unlike other animal speices) have an internal need to give and receive love.

True in so far as it goes except that I think some other species experience love too. Orcas defend their children and mourn their dead for example. Many higher primates as well. There are other examples. Examples that I suppose you would dismiss because of your need to "prove" that humans are more unique than they actually are.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

And that reality doesn't fit in the framework of atheism. It does with Christianity.

Well again ... it may not fit it in your mind, Jeff, but in reality, atheists can love, and theists can hate. So it is not a question of it fitting or not fitting with anything other than that one is a member of a species capable of that emotional dynamic. It doesn't arise from anything other than our innate constitution. If you have evidence to offer to the contrary, I am all ears, of course.

[badlander]

With his extremely skewed concepts about atheists, atheism, science, society and civilization it is little wonder that Jeff is able to paint us as the enemy. It saddens me when anyone has such a warped and hatred view on any other group of people.