Why are least religious countries much better than religious ones? (myths, Islamic)

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

No, you use my thread to foster your Christian bashing.

Nope. I praised those who stood up against people who try to divide us, make us hate each other, and cause us to see each other with suspicion, fear, and paranoia.

And you decided to write one of the stupidest posts ever written in the history of Man defending Pat Robertson, the ultra-fanatics, and the theocratic fascists.

But, as I said, it stands to reason why you would get your panties in a twist, Jeff, because you *are* one of the ultra-fanatical theocratic fascists. It's why you're the one person on this forum that I have ZERO respect for and have long ago decided to stop playing nice with in the sandbox. You're just lucky this is a moderated forum or you'd get *much* worse from me.

So instead of worrying, sniffling, and whining about being insulted, you *ought* to be thanking your lucky stars (and your non-existent Hebrew desert tribal God that personally saved you from a car crash because you're so important) that I'm as civil as I am.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Let's face it, you are so buried in contempt for God's people that there is nothing we could ever do that would win your approval.

Well, Jeff, that only exemplifies your complete inability for nuanced thinking. To you, everything is a binary equation. It's all or nothing. 100% or 0%. Ergo, if I don't like *you* and *your* specific brand of Christianity, that must mean I don't like every Christian on the planet. Besides, why do *you* personally care if you win my approval? You've made it abundantly clear how you feel about atheists, right? (And then you have the unmitigated gall to actually *wonder* why atheists give the same contempt right back).

And, while believing that I hate all Christians *might* lend you the false impression that I'm like this to everyone and not singling you out ... do you see me tearing after every Christian on this forum the way I come after you? Hmmm? In fact, I count a number of Christians here as friends and I'm pretty sure they feel the same about me.

Yet who am I to bust your little bubble of fantasy? I could sit here all day introducing you to reality and you'll deny it to the hilt and still go right on believing whatever you conjure in your own head.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I'll gladly fight against your lies any day of the week.

Quote one lie I've told on this board.

Just one lie, Jeff.

Go on. Do it.

Otherwise, never accuse anyone of lying unless you have something with which to back it up. It only makes *you* look like the fool.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

The fact that you need to claim that you "torn my ass apart"

Which I did. And always do. Every time I refute you. *Every* ... time.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

(foul disgusting language)

Ahahaha! The word "ass" is foul, disgusting language! Even the auto-censor on this board doesn't bleep out the word "ass" so tame and ubiquitous is that word. Yet you're going to allow your feathers to be ruffled over something like that. Wowwee, do you live in an oxygen tent or something to be so delicate as to be offended by the word "ass?" How do you even function in this world? Do you even have a job?

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

only feeds into my perceptions of most atheists needing to be condescending, rude and egotistical.

Who cares? I couldn't care less what your perception of atheists is. In any event, you've already made your feelings on atheists very well known and, like with everything else, no amount of contradictory information will *ever* change your mind.

As I've said before, if every atheist you meet is hostile and unfriendly, then *you* are the only common denominator -- which means the problem lies with *you* not them.

Of course, you'll deny that fact and claim it's all *our* fault as per usual. After all, I can accuse you of the same issue of which you accuse me; you have nothing but a deep seeded contempt for all non-believers regardless of who they are.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Yes we all know how it went. It went with you disguising insults in the form of a question which is nothing more than basically saying I am a sociopath. It ended with me having the maturity to walk away.

*snicker* Re-writing history again, I see. I left the thread because our fight was off-topic (thanks to you hijacking your own thread) and people were starting to complain. I wondered if you're a sociopath, yep, and still do. I inquired about it. You didn't like the question so you flew off the handle. Thus, you turned your own thread into "putrid garbage."

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Well then let's put it to the test. Say something nice about Todd White, a man who appears to want nothing more to share the love and hope of Jesus Christ to those who are hurting. Oh wait, you'll probably just label him as a fanatic too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzotFAOCZ7M

Yikes, that's a long video, Jeff. I'll watch some snippets.

(After watching about half an hour)

Here's what I think about Todd White:

Do I think he is doing some good in the world? Sure. But Jeff, I'm an atheist. How can I praise someone who I believe is spreading the biggest lie ever foisted on the human race? How can I do that? I'll give him credit for being more on the "love" side of Christianity, but then I start reading the comments and I see this:

"When our experience does not align with God’s Word, we have to fight hard to ignore our experience."

I'm sorry, but when a religion teaches outright delusion -- which is what this poster is suggesting -- I draw the line. As I said, I honestly don't know what you expect me to say about someone who so fervently spreads a religion that I think is patently immoral?

Yet the difference between you and I is that I'm going to say that Todd White has the *freedom* to do what he does and I'm not going to stand in the way of it. I'm not going to scream, shout, stomp my foot, and cry because Todd White is trying to convert people. You, on the other hand, want nothing more than for atheists to shut up. You would just *love* it if the United States government made it a criminal offense to criticize Christians, Christianity, the Bible, or God. Can you truly claim that you wouldn't? Truly? Because I don't think you can and not lie.

Unfortunately, when Todd White began preaching about people going to Hell, I gave up. I actually feel sorry for Todd because I truly do believe he is a good and decent man caught up in a totally morally bankrupt belief system -- and just doesn't realize it.

Every atheist will tell you that the idea of Hell itself is completely absent of any decent morality. Punishment is only moral if it is used as a teaching tool rather than an instrument of revenge; God uses it as revenge, for any punishment that is eternal makes any lessons learned irrelevant and pointless.

Torture is immoral in any case. Period.

The "fact" that one goes to Hell for failing to believe and love God rather than for being an evil person only reinforces the idea that Hell is simply revenge for not giving God the proper amount of worship and deference his limitless ego seems to want.

And ... the bottom line is that *anyone* who believes that non-believers are going to Hell are actually believing (whether they realize it or not) that non-believers deserve to be tortured for eternity. How anyone can walk around looking non-believers in the eye with a belief like that is beyond me, but it's a bit two-faced, don't you think? No ... of course you don't.

So while poor Todd White got himself caught up in a hell-believing doctrine that those he helps are deserving of eternal torture simply for failing to grovel at the feet of his god, at least I can respect his good intentions. It's just too bad that he had to stoop to the level of using the Hell-threat to get people to fall in line.

If you're expecting more from me, well, what am I supposed to say that wouldn't be betraying *my* beliefs? To say that Todd White is doing pure good would be like you admitting that gays are okay and should be allowed to marry.

Oh yeah ... and that little CGI clip of a human silhouette enveloped by the flames of Hell was just plain cheesy. Don't you even realize that the imagery of Hell actually comes from pagan Romans who believed the smoking, steaming volcanic caves of Mt. Vesuvius led to the Underworld? It was Mt. Vesuvius and its caves that inspired Dante's Inferno. Your entire belief in Hell comes from a volcano, Jeff. If you saw your religion in an historical sense instead of a religious one, you'd see how your Judeo-Christian myth evolved.

Then again, evolution doesn't exist, now, does it ...

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by Shirina

Nope. I praised those who stood up against people who try to divide us, make us hate each other, and cause us to see each other with suspicion, fear, and paranoia.

And you decided to write one of the stupidest posts ever written in the history of Man defending Pat Robertson, the ultra-fanatics, and the theocratic fascists.

But, as I said, it stands to reason why you would get your panties in a twist, Jeff, because you *are* one of the ultra-fanatical theocratic fascists. It's why you're the one person on this forum that I have ZERO respect for and have long ago decided to stop playing nice with in the sandbox. You're just lucky this is a moderated forum or you'd get *much* worse from me.

Nothing here but pedestal posturing. So now I'm a fascist? lol You only use that term because it sounds harse and really negative. If I were a fascist then my desire would be to see everyone forced to submit and follow Christianity. I don't. I think everyone should have the freedom to live whatever way they want as long as it is not harmful to others and doesn't violate other people's rights. I don't really see you showing any respect to someone who comes out in defense of God's Word. I would be curious if you would have the nerve to private message and see if you could handle an unmoderated discussion. Or see how you fare against 12 Christians opposing you at once. I bet your arguments would crumble like cheap Dollar General tissue paper.

Originally Posted by Shirina

So instead of worrying, sniffling, and whining about being insulted, you *ought* to be thanking your lucky stars (and your non-existent Hebrew desert tribal God that personally saved you from a car crash because you're so important) that I'm as civil as I am.

Well, first you have ZERO I repeat ZERO, I repeat again ZERO proof that God does not exist. Secondly, your posts are nothing but words on a computer screen so it's rather amusing that you characterize me as needing feel relieved that I haven't experienced your full wrath. It's rather just sad that you have such a deep reservoir of venom and anger against Bible believing Christians. I have said before that I don't care about the insults. Insult away if that is your fancy. What does grate on my nerves is the lack of accountability. Don't treat me like crap and then expect me to believe that atheists are wonderful nice people.

Originally Posted by Shirina

Well, Jeff, that only exemplifies your complete inability for nuanced thinking. To you, everything is a binary equation. It's all or nothing. 100% or 0%. Ergo, if I don't like *you* and *your* specific brand of Christianity, that must mean I don't like every Christian on the planet. Besides, why do *you* personally care if you win my approval? You've made it abundantly clear how you feel about atheists, right? (And then you have the unmitigated gall to actually *wonder* why atheists give the same contempt right back).

Ironically, it's binary thinking to suggest that based on the content of some posts I made online, then my brain is completely unable to grasp nuanced thinking. Such a conclusion could not honestly exist without knowing how I think and respond to the vast majority of life experiences which you do not know.

Frankly, I think atheists are the ones with binary thinking. You find a blanket explanation and use that to cover up EVERY scenario that threatens your delusional anti-God beliefs. For example, I can present some of the most amazing NDE stories and the atheists will immediately respond by saying "so what, that's just their brain creating hallucinations".

Originally Posted by Shirina

And, while believing that I hate all Christians *might* lend you the false impression that I'm like this to everyone and not singling you out ... do you see me tearing after every Christian on this forum the way I come after you? Hmmm? In fact, I count a number of Christians here as friends and I'm pretty sure they feel the same about me.

I see you being consistently rude to any Christian who supports the Bible. So don't play that "its only you" game with me. You have even admitted in the past that Christians have been awful to you on other forums. No doubt that would only have occurred because you really pushed their buttons with such razor wire speech.

Originally Posted by Shirina

Yet who am I to bust your little bubble of fantasy? I could sit here all day introducing you to reality and you'll deny it to the hilt and still go right on believing whatever you conjure in your own head.



Quote one lie I've told on this board.

Just one lie, Jeff.

Go on. Do it.

You claimed God does not exist. That's a lie. I win!

Originally Posted by Shirina

Ahahaha! The word "ass" is foul, disgusting language! Even the auto-censor on this board doesn't bleep out the word "ass" so tame and ubiquitous is that word. Yet you're going to allow your feathers to be ruffled over something like that. Wowwee, do you live in an oxygen tent or something to be so delicate as to be offended by the word "ass?" How do you even function in this world? Do you even have a job?

No the violent imagery is the more disgusting part. The sad reality is a true intellectual would not have to resort to such games like the belittling technique which you employ here. Imagine the Ken Ham vs Bill Nye debate going such like "well Ken, how do you even have a brain cell? You are so stupid, you're ugly and dress poorly".

Originally Posted by Shirina

Who cares? I couldn't care less what your perception of atheists is. In any event, you've already made your feelings on atheists very well known and, like with everything else, no amount of contradictory information will *ever* change your mind.

As I've said before, if every atheist you meet is hostile and unfriendly, then *you* are the only common denominator -- which means the problem lies with *you* not them.

Nope the posts are the common denominator. Shows like the Atheist Experience are the common denominator where the hosts are complete jerks to any Christian who dare challenges them.

Originally Posted by Shirina

Yikes, that's a long video, Jeff. I'll watch some snippets.

(After watching about half an hour)

Here's what I think about Todd White:

Do I think he is doing some good in the world? Sure. But Jeff, I'm an atheist. How can I praise someone who I believe is spreading the biggest lie ever foisted on the human race? How can I do that? I'll give him credit for being more on the "love" side of Christianity, but then I start reading the comments and I see this:



I'm sorry, but when a religion teaches outright delusion -- which is what this poster is suggesting -- I draw the line. As I said, I honestly don't know what you expect me to say about someone who so fervently spreads a religion that I think is patently immoral?

Yet the difference between you and I is that I'm going to say that Todd White has the *freedom* to do what he does and I'm not going to stand in the way of it. I'm not going to scream, shout, stomp my foot, and cry because Todd White is trying to convert people. You, on the other hand, want nothing more than for atheists to shut up. You would just *love* it if the United States government made it a criminal offense to criticize Christians, Christianity, the Bible, or God. Can you truly claim that you wouldn't? Truly? Because I don't think you can and not lie.

The only thing I want is for atheists to stop meddling with people's freedoms and traditions. A Gideon Bible in a hotel room is not forcing you to be a Christian. Neither is the coach who wants to pray for his team as he has done for many years. Or a community coming together in prayer on public property. Atheists are such delicate snowflakes that they can't stand to have religion in their mere realm of physical perceptions.

Originally Posted by Shirina

Unfortunately, when Todd White began preaching about people going to Hell, I gave up. I actually feel sorry for Todd because I truly do believe he is a good and decent man caught up in a totally morally bankrupt belief system -- and just doesn't realize it.

Every atheist will tell you that the idea of Hell itself is completely absent of any decent morality. Punishment is only moral if it is used as a teaching tool rather than an instrument of revenge; God uses it as revenge, for any punishment that is eternal makes any lessons learned irrelevant and pointless.

Torture is immoral in any case. Period.

The truth is that we don't have enough information to know the full reality of hell. The Bible authors could have been creating metaphorical imagery to convey a message of an undesired destination. Just like when they say God sits on a throne. I don't think God sits in a giant chair. One thing we can be sure of is that hell is separation from God and if you chose to reject having a relationship with God then you have indeed chosen that separation. An immoral God would not have given us any way to escape hell. Christ did and man tortured Him to death so we could have that escape route.

I will give you credit for at least being able to say some nice things about Todd.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Nothing here but pedestal posturing. So now I'm a fascist? lol You only use that term because it sounds harse and really negative.

On the contrary. I use that term because that's what I really think. You have given me *no* reason to think otherwise even when I've practically laid out a red carpet for you to prove you're not. Just the fact that you sat there defending Pat Robertson who endorses all kinds of fascist policies and actions says a lot about your stance.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

If I were a fascist then my desire would be to see everyone forced to submit and follow Christianity.

From what I can tell, you essentially *do* want everyone forced to submit and follow Christianity. You just do it in an oblique way. Perhaps it is so oblique that you, yourself, are unaware of how fascistic it is? More on this in the next paragraph.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I don't. I think everyone should have the freedom to live whatever way they want as long as it is not harmful to others and doesn't violate other people's rights.

And there it is. THAT is where you become the fascist.

Why? It's because you have repeatedly said that your right to your beliefs are absolutely sacrosanct; your right to your beliefs take primacy over everyone *else's* beliefs -- which is why you fight so hard against gay marriage, among other things. When you say "and doesn't violate other people's rights," what you're *really* saying is that everyone *else* -- irrespective of *their* beliefs -- should be denied the freedom to make their own choices if any of those choices offend your religious sensibilities.

I would also point out the innumerable times I have seen threads about whackjob Christian extremists on this board doing and saying nasty things about gays and atheists ... and where were *you* Jeff?

Do you ever enter those discussions condemning those ignorant haters calling themselves Christians and sewing the seeds of hate, division, and yes, fascism? No. Not one single time have you *ever* said a bad thing about those people.

Instead, you lurk in those threads and wait until an atheist says something -- and then you attack the atheist. Yep, that's exactly what you do. Silence implies consent, Jeff. I mean, it's not as if you just didn't bother participating in that thread. Oh no. You were there reading what was being said -- and you *could* have chimed in to say that what those Christians were saying was wrong.

But you didn't. You *never* did. Like I said, you remained silent until an *atheist* said something you didn't like. Then you were right there, attacking the atheist and often *defending* the nasty fascist Christian with *everything* you have. That makes you a fascist, Jeff. You've defended the fascists against atheists way too many times for me to think you're anything else.

It doesn't even matter what the Christians say, either. It could be the judge who said that atheists have no Constitutional rights. It could be the former president who said atheists aren't American citizens and certainly not patriots. It could be the pastor who believes the government should begin a campaign of genocide against gays -- or the three presidential candidates who gave speeches at his rally.

Who gives a damn about *that* when a baker might have to make a cake for a gay couple, right? I mean, can't you see the difference in severity, here? And yet even with remarks like the ones said above, we atheists don't even have the right to fight back here on this forum, much less in the real world, because you *always* jump in and cry about how Christians are being persecuted when it is quite CLEARLY the atheists and gays who are being persecuted.

That makes you a fascist, Jeff. If you *ever* found it within you to realize that not all Christians are "good" and not all atheists are "bad," perhaps you would stop defending every Christian fascist nutjob in America against every atheist no matter *who* the atheist is.

Because this failure on your part makes you at least *appear* to be a fascist. If you *truly* aren't a fascist, then you're going to have to do *a lot* better when it comes to who you choose to defend and who you choose to attack ... and when.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I don't really see you showing any respect to someone who comes out in defense of God's Word.

That's because you see every little criticism of God and Christianity as so heinously disrespectful that merely writing it down on this forum, regardless of style or tone, will raise your hackles. It is utterly *impossible* for you to see respect written within *any* criticism of your beliefs.

So you're never going to see it. Ever.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I would be curious if you would have the nerve to private message and see if you could handle an unmoderated discussion.

Come now, Jeff. I found my way here from the jungles of unmoderated forums, where I've been since 1998. This is the first truly moderated forum I've written for, and I almost quit a couple of times because I was getting posts deleted left and right due to always running afoul of the rules. I even got hit with a 7 day ban-hammer last year for over-doing things. It took me quite awhile to get used to not being able to say *precisely* what I think.

That is NOT a challenge you want to make, my dear.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Or see how you fare against 12 Christians opposing you at once. I bet your arguments would crumble like cheap Dollar General tissue paper.

LOL! Get real. In case you've forgotten, I'm disabled. I can only type so many post per day and then I have to quit as the pain in my hands grows so harsh that even the pain meds I take can't cope. Remember that drowning me out with a 12 vs. 1 shouting match doesn't mean they win and I lose. Volume doesn't equate to victory. Anyone on forums knows that.

At any rate, my arguments speak for themselves. If there was an independent judge grading the merits of each post, trust me, I could take on all 12 of them. It's not as though any of them are going to clobber me with something I've never heard before. In fact, I have an uncle who is a colonel-chaplain in the Army who also holds a masters in theology from Duke. I argued him down to a point where all he could do was throw up his hands and say, "I'll have to get back to you on that." End of debate. He never did get back to me and now he won't even *try* to discuss religion or witness to me anymore.

Having 12 people arguing at me just means more typing than I can handle -- which has absolutely nothing to do with the credibility, logic, and accuracy of my arguments. Sorry, but you're all over the place on that one.

Now that we can move past the part where I embarrassingly toot my own horn ...

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Well, first you have ZERO I repeat ZERO, I repeat again ZERO proof that God does not exist.

Untrue. There is plenty of proof that the Biblegod doesn't exist -- at least not in a real sense. Please don't ask me to sit here and give it all to you now. I've written about it many times. The problem is that you see your religion from a different perspective than I see it. You're not going to accept *anything* I say as proof -- or even evidence -- that God doesn't exist.

Your mind is made up. Dead bang. It stands to reason that you're going to say that I have zero proof ... even if I drove up with 10 city dump trucks filled with proof and dumped it all at your feet.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Secondly, your posts are nothing but words on a computer screen so it's rather amusing that you characterize me as needing feel relieved that I haven't experienced your full wrath.

So you say, but I know better. How many times have you hijacked threads to complain about people insulting you? Yeah, you can hide behind the old "you're just words on a computer screen" balony if you want, but you're not fooling anyone, least of all me.

If you saw me, and everyone else, as just "words on a computer," you wouldn't have spent thousands of keystrokes writing about how much you hate it when people insult you and instead would have ignored it and stuck to the topic actually being discussed.

Instead, you, like me, know full well that there is a person behind those words, and that person is talking to you. The medium doesn't matter. I'll go out on a limb here and say that, as a human being, you would much rather we liked each other and got along than to have the toxic "relationship" we have now. Right?

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

It's rather just sad that you have such a deep reservoir of venom and anger against Bible believing Christians.

There you go again, making grand, sweeping generalizations.

First of all, my "deep reservoir of venom and anger" is reserved for a rather small subset of Bible-believing Christians. Everyone else, I generally leave alone.

Secondly, as I've said in another recent post, I've only been truly angry here a handful of times, and most of those times had to do with post deletions, rules infractions that I thought were unfair, etc. and not what someone said in a post. There was once or twice when someone said exactly the wrong thing on the exact wrong day while I was in the exact wrong mood for it and I exploded -- and they had nothing to do with religion, per se.

So sorry, I'm not as venomous or as angry as you probably think I am. I wrote about this with Arch Angel just the other day. I add a lot of passion, flair, pizzazz, spice, zing, etc. to my posts to make them entertaining as well as informative. Otherwise, no one is going to read my mini-novels.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I have said before that I don't care about the insults. Insult away if that is your fancy. What does grate on my nerves is the lack of accountability. Don't treat me like crap and then expect me to believe that atheists are wonderful nice people.

Well then, how do you think *I* feel? Hmm, Jeff? I couldn't even stay in North Carolina where I had a life and friends, where I used to actually leave the house and go do things. Instead, I had to move back to the tiny town in PA where I spent my adolescence -- where I know no one, have to deal with my toxic aunt, I've become a veritable shut-in, and where I've become cut-off from the world.

Why? Because the so-called "Bible Belt," which includes North Carolina, has such an abysmal social safety net that I couldn't get *any* meaningful help for my disability. None. And when North Carolina had the opportunity to expand Medicaid coverage under "Obamacare" to the very poor (i.e. no income at all like myself), the good Christians of North Carolina voted nope. No. Never. Not on your life. Literally!

I spent an entire year damn near bed-ridden because the only option afforded to me was free clinics -- which don't deal in narcotic pain meds, which I desperately needed. Now, I would have *thought* that a state full of Christians would want to *help* the poor in some meaningful way, not just hand out bananas, ya know? But nope. The entire American South is like that ... they're Christian, all right, until you ask to have their tax dollars help fund programs for the sick and poor. Then watch how "Christian" they are.

How am I supposed to believe that Christians are wonderful people when I can't even get medical treatment thanks to the political policies in a Bible Belt filled with Christians? And trust me when I say that THIS has affected me thousands of times more than gay marriage will EVER affect you. Understand?

Yet, even so, I don't go around hating all Christians. I've told you repeatedly the kind of Christian I don't care for, and like it or not, you've placed yourself in that category. Oh, I know you probably don't care, and you'll continue doing what you do, saying what you say, but if you ever expect to get out of the doghouse with *me* then you'll have to stop assuming every Christian is good and defending them against every atheist even when that atheist has *every* right to lash out.

How would *you* like it if prominent atheists were going on national television saying Christians have no rights or Christians should all be put to death or Christians aren't real American citizens? Think about it, then ask me again why I oppose this sort of garbage -- and why I come after you for defending it.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Ironically, it's binary thinking to suggest that based on the content of some posts I made online, then my brain is completely unable to grasp nuanced thinking. Such a conclusion could not honestly exist without knowing how I think and respond to the vast majority of life experiences which you do not know.

What am I supposed to do, then? Ask for your complete autobiography before making any kind of conclusions? All I see is what you post ... here ... on this forum. And you have repeatedly (twice alone in the post I'm responding to) demonstrated a consistent pattern of binary thinking. If you're truly capable of nuanced thinking, then you wouldn't even be accusing me of hating all Christians. But you do. Then you extend that thinking into assuming all atheists are bad. So ... what am I supposed to think about that?

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Frankly, I think atheists are the ones with binary thinking.

LOL! Well, there you go, using binary thinking by accusing *all* atheists of binary thinking. What a hoot. As if atheists roll out of a cookie cutter assembly line.

There's nothing like a good ol' fashioned "I know you are but what am I?" response.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

You find a blanket explanation and use that to cover up EVERY scenario that threatens your delusional anti-God beliefs. For example, I can present some of the most amazing NDE stories and the atheists will immediately respond by saying "so what, that's just their brain creating hallucinations".

First of all, that's not how binary thinking works. Having a ready explanation for every scenario is not binary thinking. Rather, binary thinking is when you see the world in absolutes. Things are all black or all white. Everything is 100% or 0%. It's all or nothing. Everyone or no one. They love me or hate me. It's completely full or completely empty.

Secondly, so what if atheists have alternate explanations for every scenario Christians can throw at us? It's not *our* fault that your side hasn't been able to produce evidence for your God that can't be otherwise explained. That's just the way the world works.

On top of that, not one piece of "evidence" has suggested that it's *your* God. I've heard the NDE stories, too, and while they often *do* talk about something that can be described as loving and "god-like," they do not, in any way, substantiate the "Heaven/Hell" of the Bible.

No, don't bother posting an example, either. Here's why: I can just as easily post examples of Hindus having the same kinds of experiences. In fact, there's a book called Dying to Be Me: My Journey from Cancer to Near Death to True Healing about a Hindu woman who died and came back -- no "god" there, at all, but when she came back, her cancer healed. Miraculously. Hmm. Shouldn't she have been dumped into Hell while she was dead? Why didn't she see Jesus? Why was a non-believer miraculously cured?

My point here is that your beliefs and your religion doesn't have some kind of monopoly on miracles, NDEs, and visions of the afterlife. Nothing at all suggests that your religion and your God is the One True Faith or that your God exists at all.

As I told someone else, you *might* have a relationship with a superbeing of *some* kind, but it's not God. I'm betting my eternal soul on that fact -- what more could I wager that could prove my confidence in my position? And why would I risk such a thing if I thought for even a moment that I was wrong?

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I see you being consistently rude to any Christian who supports the Bible

*shrug* That depends how they support it. If I have to listen to people trying to tell everyone that Adam and Eve is historical fact and evolution, despite the warehouses full of evidence, is all wrong, yeah, I might be a bit rude. Why? Because this country can't afford to have a scientifically illiterate population still clinging to ancient myths from the Bronze Age. America is becoming a laughing stock ... not that you probably notice such things.

I care about this nation's standing in the world, and while we continue to have silly debates about creationism in the science classroom (no other industrialized country even *has* that debate because they would never mix mythology with science), the rest of the world is moving on. While Europe was building the most complex piece of machinery ever built by human hands, the Large Hadron Collider, America got busy building its very own creation museum in Kentucky. Yeah ...

And guess who won? Score another victory for science with the discovery of the Higgs-Boson particle which the Large Hadron Collider made possible and another fail for the creationist museum which is dying due to a lack of attendance.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

So don't play that "its only you" game with me.

It's only you because you're the only one who I still see as a true fascist. Sure, you can *tell* me that you're not one. But if I looked around on the internet and found an article about some gay-bashing preacher telling his congregation that gays ought to be stoned to death or some senator from Mississippi saying atheists should be banned from putting up billboards, you'll continue to say nothing. That is, until the atheists enter the fray and that's when you'll arrive on your high horse of holy sanctimony attacking the atheists and defending the preacher and the senator with wild, reckless abandon.

Because that's what you do every time. If you decide to participate at all. In some cases, the rights of atheists and gays aren't even important enough for you to comment upon one way or the other.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

You have even admitted in the past that Christians have been awful to you on other forums. No doubt that would only have occurred because you really pushed their buttons with such razor wire speech.

Actually, they were nasty to me first. Not that you'll believe that, I'm sure, because that reality kinda messes up your argument. What you don't realize, too, that in threads where actual debate was going on (rather than the usual trolling and flame wars endemic in unmoderated forums) I used to have a very cold, clinical writing style -- not the aptly-named "razor wire" speech you see now. But I gave up writing like that because I was boring myself much less my dear readers.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

You claimed God does not exist. That's a lie. I win!

Nice try, but no. Even if it were proven that God exists, I would have simply been wrong. Being wrong is not the same thing as lying.

Lying implies that I'm KNOWINGLY telling you an untruth -- and for me to knowingly lie to you by telling you that God doesn't exist, I would have to believe that he *does* exist. And you know better than that.

'A' for effort, 'F' for accuracy.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

No the violent imagery is the more disgusting part.

Really? You actually envisioned in your mind a literal ass being torn apart?

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

The sad reality is a true intellectual would not have to resort to such games like the belittling technique which you employ here.

The sad reality is that this isn't the Harvard Debating Club. There aren't any rules aside from the rules the mods have set in place -- and they don't declare winners and losers. As I said before, I write to get read, and my style works. On top of that, the atheist message comes in all kinds of flavors -- and whether this sits well with you or not, sometimes it actually takes a person like me to actually get through to someone. Oh, it may not work with *you* but then again, when I write a post, I'm not only writing to the person I'm responding to. I'm writing to everyone else, too, including the unknown number of lurkers and even fence-sitters who might come here looking for input on whether or not to start following a religion. There's a much wider world out there than just you and me.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Imagine the Ken Ham vs Bill Nye debate going such like "well Ken, how do you even have a brain cell? You are so stupid, you're ugly and dress poorly".

*snicker* I've watched a lot of debates and, trust me, they insult each other. They may do it with a bit more panache and finesse than I do here, but I've seen them do it. Surely you've heard of the infamous "Hitch Slap" of the late and great Christopher Hitchens, right? Where do you think that phrase came from? Because he was always nice and polite during his debates? (And don't you *dare* start up with some nonsense victory dance because Hitchens was an atheist and he insulted people; the Christians did it too and just as often).

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Nope the posts are the common denominator. Shows like the Atheist Experience are the common denominator where the hosts are complete jerks to any Christian who dare challenges them.

I'm not at all ashamed of my posts. Let's see ... even with a broken rep system that prevents the majority of reps I would have gotten from being logged, I almost have a 1:2 ratio. Meaning I've gotten a rep point for every two posts.

*shrug* And I get a lot of compliments. So what? People know and understand the quality of my posts, and before you go on about all of the reps being from atheists, trust me, they're not. I've even gotten a rep or two from Vizio. Can you believe that?

I'm sorry if a large part of my ire comes down upon *your* head, but that's not my fault. I respond to what I see. It's only logical that *you* wouldn't like my posts.

And as I've said before (many times) you are so hyper-sensitive about people criticizing God and the Bible that I'm not really sure if I ever *could* write a post that you would find acceptable without literally becoming a Christian myself and turning on the atheists like a pit viper.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

The only thing I want is for atheists to stop meddling with people's freedoms and traditions.

Ah, there we go ... "people's traditions." Before, it was people's rights, but now we've added "traditions" as well. Yep, we're getting closer to the truth, now.

Yet ... how many times have we said, over and over, that marriage does not belong to Christianity? Your religion, much less your particular faction of it, doesn't get to decide for *everyone* else who is allowed to marry. Hindus marry. Muslims marry. Shintos marry. Pentacostals and Universalists marry. So, too, do agnostics and atheists. So why should they all have to abide by *your* particular set of beliefs? Why does fundamentalist Christianity get to decide who can marry?

Can you give an honest answer there without some fallacious "appeal to tradition" argument or resorting to quoting scripture (which would be meaningless to a non-believer anyway)? I doubt it, because there is no justifiable answer. That's why your side lost.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

A Gideon Bible in a hotel room is not forcing you to be a Christian.

That was a stupid thing for atheists to concern themselves with and most atheists here said as much.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Neither is the coach who wants to pray for his team as he has done for many years.

What is the atheist supposed to do? Sit out of the prayer and out himself as an atheist -- so he can be bullied later on? Or kicked out of the house by his religious parents? What about the Muslim forced to listen to Christian prayers? Or the Jew? Or the Buddhist who has to play without a proper Buddhist blessing being performed?

Public schools are different because kids *have* to be there by law, and *no* one should be made to feel like he or she can't participate or join in because it's a "Christian" team chanting "Christian" prayers. And why pray anyway? The other coach is praying too. And does ANYONE think that the Almighty gives a flying fig who wins a damn high school football game? Seriously? While people are starving in Africa and diseases are spreading and terrorism is going ape in the Middle East, etc.?

To tell the truth, I'd feel like a royal cad for even THINKING about asking God to help us out on the ballfield when there are so many REAL things to be praying for.

But hey, that's just me. Maybe my evil atheist mind has a completely different moral stance than some of these Christians.

To tell you the honest truth, here, Jeff, there have been times when the pain has been so horrific that I damn near broke down and prayed ... simply out of desperation. But I never did. And I'll tell you why. It wasn't my atheism that kept me from doing it. What stopped me was the stupidity of it all. How could I *possibly* ask for healing when there were so many others out there who needed it more than I did? I know that sounds like false humility, but if you're right and there *is* a God, I'd swear to him that I really do feel this way. I just cannot bring myself to pray for a miracle even if I believed -- which I don't -- because it just seems too, meh, prideful.

But oh no, these idiots will pray to win a football game. Right. And then you wonder why I get critical of Christians. Why not just dispense with the prayers and go play ball.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Or a community coming together in prayer on public property.

I couldn't care less if people pray on public property. When was that ever an issue?

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Atheists are such delicate snowflakes that they can't stand to have religion in their mere realm of physical perceptions.

Ah, there's that binary thinking again. Now you've done it three times in your post.

Face it, Jeff. Usually when there's some stupid issue like Gideon Bibles or a Nativity Scene, it's not as if the entire atheist community is rising up to demand that these things be removed. It's *always* one lone idiot or a tiny group of idiots. These are battles that the vast majority of atheists don't support.

And if we went back and checked, Jeff, I'm willing to bet that MOST of the atheists here said exactly that. These are rather lame issues, there are bigger and better battles to fight, and that these lone atheists make our side look bad.

Right on cue, here you are, blaming every atheist on the planet for the actions of one individual or some tiny group. That would be like blaming every Christian for Westboro Baptist Church. Now, you wouldn't like it if we started doing that, would you? Of course not. Thus you need to start showing *us* a little respect by acknowledging that these idiotic battles over "merry Christmas" and after-school Bible study are *not* the kinds of battles most of us support.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

The truth is that we don't have enough information to know the full reality of hell. The Bible authors could have been creating metaphorical imagery to convey a message of an undesired destination. Just like when they say God sits on a throne. I don't think God sits in a giant chair. One thing we can be sure of is that hell is separation from God and if you chose to reject having a relationship with God then you have indeed chosen that separation. An immoral God would not have given us any way to escape hell. Christ did and man tortured Him to death so we could have that escape route.

Even if I believed in God, I wouldn't believe in Hell. As I said before, it's immoral. Unless God is immoral, there cannot be such a thing as eternal torment -- especially for no better reason than simply being wrong about a concept (Christianity) that offers up no substantial proof that it's even real.

Almost every atheist will tell you that they could no more believe in God than *you* could *not* believe in God. Our minds are literally, perhaps biologically different than yours. We're not able to take things on "faith." That's what and who we are -- and we can't change that aspect of our identity any more than we can change into a raccoon. How would punishing us help anyone or prove a point? Merely seeing God when we die would have us on our knees admitting we were wrong and asking for forgiveness ... torturing us forever isn't going to convince us *more* that we were wrong.

It makes no sense either as a punishment or as a tool that a truly good and just and loving God would ever employ.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I will give you credit for at least being able to say some nice things about Todd.

And I'll give you credit for not getting angry that I didn't give him purely rave reviews. I do think his heart is in the right place.

[badlander]

Most if not all ten of the happiest countries in the world are ones that no longer are very religious. Also most of those countries place a large emphasis on social justice and publicly funded social safety nets. Maybe it is having better balanced lives that is the reason rather than their views of religion? Maybe it is having winters?

[Arach Angle]

Originally Posted by badlander

Most if not all ten of the happiest countries in the world are ones that no longer are very religious. Also most of those countries place a large emphasis on social justice and publicly funded social safety nets. Maybe it is having better balanced lives that is the reason rather than their views of religion? Maybe it is having winters?

maybe its 30,000 million people and US millitary support. God gotz nothing to do with it.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by Shirina

On the contrary. I use that term because that's what I really think. You have given me *no* reason to think otherwise even when I've practically laid out a red carpet for you to prove you're not. Just the fact that you sat there defending Pat Robertson who endorses all kinds of fascist policies and actions says a lot about your stance.

<Snip for brevity>. An outstanding post old girl...and bang on the nail with every sentence.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Shirina

On the contrary. I use that term because that's what I really think. You have given me *no* reason to think otherwise even when I've practically laid out a red carpet for you to prove you're not. Just the fact that you sat there defending Pat Robertson who endorses all kinds of fascist policies and actions says a lot about your stance.
From what I can tell, you essentially *do* want everyone forced to submit and follow Christianity. You just do it in an oblique way. Perhaps it is so oblique that you, yourself, are unaware of how fascistic it is? More on this in the next paragraph.
And there it is. THAT is where you become the fascist.
Why? It's because you have repeatedly said that your right to your beliefs are absolutely sacrosanct; your right to your beliefs take primacy over everyone *else's* beliefs -- which is why you fight so hard against gay marriage, among other things. When you say "and doesn't violate other people's rights," what you're *really* saying is that everyone *else* -- irrespective of *their* beliefs -- should be denied the freedom to make their own choices if any of those choices offend your religious sensibilities.
I would also point out the innumerable times I have seen threads about whackjob Christian extremists on this board doing and saying nasty things about gays and atheists ... and where were *you* Jeff?
Do you ever enter those discussions condemning those ignorant haters calling themselves Christians and sewing the seeds of hate, division, and yes, fascism? No. Not one single time have you *ever* said a bad thing about those people.
Instead, you lurk in those threads and wait until an atheist says something -- and then you attack the atheist. Yep, that's exactly what you do. Silence implies consent, Jeff. I mean, it's not as if you just didn't bother participating in that thread. Oh no. You were there reading what was being said -- and you *could* have chimed in to say that what those Christians were saying was wrong.
But you didn't. You *never* did. Like I said, you remained silent until an *atheist* said something you didn't like. Then you were right there, attacking the atheist and often *defending* the nasty fascist Christian with *everything* you have. That makes you a fascist, Jeff. You've defended the fascists against atheists way too many times for me to think you're anything else.
It doesn't even matter what the Christians say, either. It could be the judge who said that atheists have no Constitutional rights. It could be the former president who said atheists aren't American citizens and certainly not patriots. It could be the pastor who believes the government should begin a campaign of genocide against gays -- or the three presidential candidates who gave speeches at his rally.
Who gives a damn about *that* when a baker might have to make a cake for a gay couple, right? I mean, can't you see the difference in severity, here? And yet even with remarks like the ones said above, we atheists don't even have the right to fight back here on this forum, much less in the real world, because you *always* jump in and cry about how Christians are being persecuted when it is quite CLEARLY the atheists and gays who are being persecuted.
That makes you a fascist, Jeff. If you *ever* found it within you to realize that not all Christians are "good" and not all atheists are "bad," perhaps you would stop defending every Christian fascist nutjob in America against every atheist no matter *who* the atheist is.
Because this failure on your part makes you at least *appear* to be a fascist. If you *truly* aren't a fascist, then you're going to have to do *a lot* better when it comes to who you choose to defend and who you choose to attack ... and when.
That's because you see every little criticism of God and Christianity as so heinously disrespectful that merely writing it down on this forum, regardless of style or tone, will raise your hackles. It is utterly *impossible* for you to see respect written within *any* criticism of your beliefs.
So you're never going to see it. Ever.
Come now, Jeff. I found my way here from the jungles of unmoderated forums, where I've been since 1998. This is the first truly moderated forum I've written for, and I almost quit a couple of times because I was getting posts deleted left and right due to always running afoul of the rules. I even got hit with a 7 day ban-hammer last year for over-doing things. It took me quite awhile to get used to not being able to say *precisely* what I think.
That is NOT a challenge you want to make, my dear.
LOL! Get real. In case you've forgotten, I'm disabled. I can only type so many post per day and then I have to quit as the pain in my hands grows so harsh that even the pain meds I take can't cope. Remember that drowning me out with a 12 vs. 1 shouting match doesn't mean they win and I lose. Volume doesn't equate to victory. Anyone on forums knows that.
At any rate, my arguments speak for themselves. If there was an independent judge grading the merits of each post, trust me, I could take on all 12 of them. It's not as though any of them are going to clobber me with something I've never heard before. In fact, I have an uncle who is a colonel-chaplain in the Army who also holds a masters in theology from Duke. I argued him down to a point where all he could do was throw up his hands and say, "I'll have to get back to you on that." End of debate. He never did get back to me and now he won't even *try* to discuss religion or witness to me anymore.
Having 12 people arguing at me just means more typing than I can handle -- which has absolutely nothing to do with the credibility, logic, and accuracy of my arguments. Sorry, but you're all over the place on that one.
Now that we can move past the part where I embarrassingly toot my own horn ...
Untrue. There is plenty of proof that the Biblegod doesn't exist -- at least not in a real sense. Please don't ask me to sit here and give it all to you now. I've written about it many times. The problem is that you see your religion from a different perspective than I see it. You're not going to accept *anything* I say as proof -- or even evidence -- that God doesn't exist.
Your mind is made up. Dead bang. It stands to reason that you're going to say that I have zero proof ... even if I drove up with 10 city dump trucks filled with proof and dumped it all at your feet.
So you say, but I know better. How many times have you hijacked threads to complain about people insulting you? Yeah, you can hide behind the old "you're just words on a computer screen" balony if you want, but you're not fooling anyone, least of all me.
If you saw me, and everyone else, as just "words on a computer," you wouldn't have spent thousands of keystrokes writing about how much you hate it when people insult you and instead would have ignored it and stuck to the topic actually being discussed.
Instead, you, like me, know full well that there is a person behind those words, and that person is talking to you. The medium doesn't matter. I'll go out on a limb here and say that, as a human being, you would much rather we liked each other and got along than to have the toxic "relationship" we have now. Right?
There you go again, making grand, sweeping generalizations.
First of all, my "deep reservoir of venom and anger" is reserved for a rather small subset of Bible-believing Christians. Everyone else, I generally leave alone.
Secondly, as I've said in another recent post, I've only been truly angry here a handful of times, and most of those times had to do with post deletions, rules infractions that I thought were unfair, etc. and not what someone said in a post. There was once or twice when someone said exactly the wrong thing on the exact wrong day while I was in the exact wrong mood for it and I exploded -- and they had nothing to do with religion, per se.
So sorry, I'm not as venomous or as angry as you probably think I am. I wrote about this with Arch Angel just the other day. I add a lot of passion, flair, pizzazz, spice, zing, etc. to my posts to make them entertaining as well as informative. Otherwise, no one is going to read my mini-novels.
Well then, how do you think *I* feel? Hmm, Jeff? I couldn't even stay in North Carolina where I had a life and friends, where I used to actually leave the house and go do things. Instead, I had to move back to the tiny town in PA where I spent my adolescence -- where I know no one, have to deal with my toxic aunt, I've become a veritable shut-in, and where I've become cut-off from the world.
Why? Because the so-called "Bible Belt," which includes North Carolina, has such an abysmal social safety net that I couldn't get *any* meaningful help for my disability. None. And when North Carolina had the opportunity to expand Medicaid coverage under "Obamacare" to the very poor (i.e. no income at all like myself), the good Christians of North Carolina voted nope. No. Never. Not on your life. Literally!
I spent an entire year damn near bed-ridden because the only option afforded to me was free clinics -- which don't deal in narcotic pain meds, which I desperately needed. Now, I would have *thought* that a state full of Christians would want to *help* the poor in some meaningful way, not just hand out bananas, ya know? But nope. The entire American South is like that ... they're Christian, all right, until you ask to have their tax dollars help fund programs for the sick and poor. Then watch how "Christian" they are.
How am I supposed to believe that Christians are wonderful people when I can't even get medical treatment thanks to the political policies in a Bible Belt filled with Christians? And trust me when I say that THIS has affected me thousands of times more than gay marriage will EVER affect you. Understand?
Yet, even so, I don't go around hating all Christians. I've told you repeatedly the kind of Christian I don't care for, and like it or not, you've placed yourself in that category. Oh, I know you probably don't care, and you'll continue doing what you do, saying what you say, but if you ever expect to get out of the doghouse with *me* then you'll have to stop assuming every Christian is good and defending them against every atheist even when that atheist has *every* right to lash out.
How would *you* like it if prominent atheists were going on national television saying Christians have no rights or Christians should all be put to death or Christians aren't real American citizens? Think about it, then ask me again why I oppose this sort of garbage -- and why I come after you for defending it.
What am I supposed to do, then? Ask for your complete autobiography before making any kind of conclusions? All I see is what you post ... here ... on this forum. And you have repeatedly (twice alone in the post I'm responding to) demonstrated a consistent pattern of binary thinking. If you're truly capable of nuanced thinking, then you wouldn't even be accusing me of hating all Christians. But you do. Then you extend that thinking into assuming all atheists are bad. So ... what am I supposed to think about that?
LOL! Well, there you go, using binary thinking by accusing *all* atheists of binary thinking. What a hoot. As if atheists roll out of a cookie cutter assembly line.
There's nothing like a good ol' fashioned "I know you are but what am I?" response.
First of all, that's not how binary thinking works. Having a ready explanation for every scenario is not binary thinking. Rather, binary thinking is when you see the world in absolutes. Things are all black or all white. Everything is 100% or 0%. It's all or nothing. Everyone or no one. They love me or hate me. It's completely full or completely empty.
Secondly, so what if atheists have alternate explanations for every scenario Christians can throw at us? It's not *our* fault that your side hasn't been able to produce evidence for your God that can't be otherwise explained. That's just the way the world works.
On top of that, not one piece of "evidence" has suggested that it's *your* God. I've heard the NDE stories, too, and while they often *do* talk about something that can be described as loving and "god-like," they do not, in any way, substantiate the "Heaven/Hell" of the Bible.
No, don't bother posting an example, either. Here's why: I can just as easily post examples of Hindus having the same kinds of experiences. In fact, there's a book called Dying to Be Me: My Journey from Cancer to Near Death to True Healing about a Hindu woman who died and came back -- no "god" there, at all, but when she came back, her cancer healed. Miraculously. Hmm. Shouldn't she have been dumped into Hell while she was dead? Why didn't she see Jesus? Why was a non-believer miraculously cured?
My point here is that your beliefs and your religion doesn't have some kind of monopoly on miracles, NDEs, and visions of the afterlife. Nothing at all suggests that your religion and your God is the One True Faith or that your God exists at all.
As I told someone else, you *might* have a relationship with a superbeing of *some* kind, but it's not God. I'm betting my eternal soul on that fact -- what more could I wager that could prove my confidence in my position? And why would I risk such a thing if I thought for even a moment that I was wrong?
*shrug* That depends how they support it. If I have to listen to people trying to tell everyone that Adam and Eve is historical fact and evolution, despite the warehouses full of evidence, is all wrong, yeah, I might be a bit rude. Why? Because this country can't afford to have a scientifically illiterate population still clinging to ancient myths from the Bronze Age. America is becoming a laughing stock ... not that you probably notice such things.
I care about this nation's standing in the world, and while we continue to have silly debates about creationism in the science classroom (no other industrialized country even *has* that debate because they would never mix mythology with science), the rest of the world is moving on. While Europe was building the most complex piece of machinery ever built by human hands, the Large Hadron Collider, America got busy building its very own creation museum in Kentucky. Yeah ...
And guess who won? Score another victory for science with the discovery of the Higgs-Boson particle which the Large Hadron Collider made possible and another fail for the creationist museum which is dying due to a lack of attendance.
It's only you because you're the only one who I still see as a true fascist. Sure, you can *tell* me that you're not one. But if I looked around on the internet and found an article about some gay-bashing preacher telling his congregation that gays ought to be stoned to death or some senator from Mississippi saying atheists should be banned from putting up billboards, you'll continue to say nothing. That is, until the atheists enter the fray and that's when you'll arrive on your high horse of holy sanctimony attacking the atheists and defending the preacher and the senator with wild, reckless abandon.
Because that's what you do every time. If you decide to participate at all. In some cases, the rights of atheists and gays aren't even important enough for you to comment upon one way or the other.
Actually, they were nasty to me first. Not that you'll believe that, I'm sure, because that reality kinda messes up your argument. What you don't realize, too, that in threads where actual debate was going on (rather than the usual trolling and flame wars endemic in unmoderated forums) I used to have a very cold, clinical writing style -- not the aptly-named "razor wire" speech you see now. But I gave up writing like that because I was boring myself much less my dear readers.
Nice try, but no. Even if it were proven that God exists, I would have simply been wrong. Being wrong is not the same thing as lying.
Lying implies that I'm KNOWINGLY telling you an untruth -- and for me to knowingly lie to you by telling you that God doesn't exist, I would have to believe that he *does* exist. And you know better than that.
'A' for effort, 'F' for accuracy.
Really? You actually envisioned in your mind a literal ass being torn apart?
The sad reality is that this isn't the Harvard Debating Club. There aren't any rules aside from the rules the mods have set in place -- and they don't declare winners and losers. As I said before, I write to get read, and my style works. On top of that, the atheist message comes in all kinds of flavors -- and whether this sits well with you or not, sometimes it actually takes a person like me to actually get through to someone. Oh, it may not work with *you* but then again, when I write a post, I'm not only writing to the person I'm responding to. I'm writing to everyone else, too, including the unknown number of lurkers and even fence-sitters who might come here looking for input on whether or not to start following a religion. There's a much wider world out there than just you and me.
*snicker* I've watched a lot of debates and, trust me, they insult each other. They may do it with a bit more panache and finesse than I do here, but I've seen them do it. Surely you've heard of the infamous "Hitch Slap" of the late and great Christopher Hitchens, right? Where do you think that phrase came from? Because he was always nice and polite during his debates? (And don't you *dare* start up with some nonsense victory dance because Hitchens was an atheist and he insulted people; the Christians did it too and just as often).
I'm not at all ashamed of my posts. Let's see ... even with a broken rep system that prevents the majority of reps I would have gotten from being logged, I almost have a 1:2 ratio. Meaning I've gotten a rep point for every two posts.
*shrug* And I get a lot of compliments. So what? People know and understand the quality of my posts, and before you go on about all of the reps being from atheists, trust me, they're not. I've even gotten a rep or two from Vizio. Can you believe that?
I'm sorry if a large part of my ire comes down upon *your* head, but that's not my fault. I respond to what I see. It's only logical that *you* wouldn't like my posts.
And as I've said before (many times) you are so hyper-sensitive about people criticizing God and the Bible that I'm not really sure if I ever *could* write a post that you would find acceptable without literally becoming a Christian myself and turning on the atheists like a pit viper.
Ah, there we go ... "people's traditions." Before, it was people's rights, but now we've added "traditions" as well. Yep, we're getting closer to the truth, now.
Yet ... how many times have we said, over and over, that marriage does not belong to Christianity? Your religion, much less your particular faction of it, doesn't get to decide for *everyone* else who is allowed to marry. Hindus marry. Muslims marry. Shintos marry. Pentacostals and Universalists marry. So, too, do agnostics and atheists. So why should they all have to abide by *your* particular set of beliefs? Why does fundamentalist Christianity get to decide who can marry?
Can you give an honest answer there without some fallacious "appeal to tradition" argument or resorting to quoting scripture (which would be meaningless to a non-believer anyway)? I doubt it, because there is no justifiable answer. That's why your side lost.
That was a stupid thing for atheists to concern themselves with and most atheists here said as much.
What is the atheist supposed to do? Sit out of the prayer and out himself as an atheist -- so he can be bullied later on? Or kicked out of the house by his religious parents? What about the Muslim forced to listen to Christian prayers? Or the Jew? Or the Buddhist who has to play without a proper Buddhist blessing being performed?
Public schools are different because kids *have* to be there by law, and *no* one should be made to feel like he or she can't participate or join in because it's a "Christian" team chanting "Christian" prayers. And why pray anyway? The other coach is praying too. And does ANYONE think that the Almighty gives a flying fig who wins a damn high school football game? Seriously? While people are starving in Africa and diseases are spreading and terrorism is going ape in the Middle East, etc.?
To tell the truth, I'd feel like a royal cad for even THINKING about asking God to help us out on the ballfield when there are so many REAL things to be praying for.
But hey, that's just me. Maybe my evil atheist mind has a completely different moral stance than some of these Christians.
To tell you the honest truth, here, Jeff, there have been times when the pain has been so horrific that I damn near broke down and prayed ... simply out of desperation. But I never did. And I'll tell you why. It wasn't my atheism that kept me from doing it. What stopped me was the stupidity of it all. How could I *possibly* ask for healing when there were so many others out there who needed it more than I did? I know that sounds like false humility, but if you're right and there *is* a God, I'd swear to him that I really do feel this way. I just cannot bring myself to pray for a miracle even if I believed -- which I don't -- because it just seems too, meh, prideful.
But oh no, these idiots will pray to win a football game. Right. And then you wonder why I get critical of Christians. Why not just dispense with the prayers and go play ball.
I couldn't care less if people pray on public property. When was that ever an issue?
Ah, there's that binary thinking again. Now you've done it three times in your post.
Face it, Jeff. Usually when there's some stupid issue like Gideon Bibles or a Nativity Scene, it's not as if the entire atheist community is rising up to demand that these things be removed. It's *always* one lone idiot or a tiny group of idiots. These are battles that the vast majority of atheists don't support.
And if we went back and checked, Jeff, I'm willing to bet that MOST of the atheists here said exactly that. These are rather lame issues, there are bigger and better battles to fight, and that these lone atheists make our side look bad.
Right on cue, here you are, blaming every atheist on the planet for the actions of one individual or some tiny group. That would be like blaming every Christian for Westboro Baptist Church. Now, you wouldn't like it if we started doing that, would you? Of course not. Thus you need to start showing *us* a little respect by acknowledging that these idiotic battles over "merry Christmas" and after-school Bible study are *not* the kinds of battles most of us support.
Even if I believed in God, I wouldn't believe in Hell. As I said before, it's immoral. Unless God is immoral, there cannot be such a thing as eternal torment -- especially for no better reason than simply being wrong about a concept (Christianity) that offers up no substantial proof that it's even real.
Almost every atheist will tell you that they could no more believe in God than *you* could *not* believe in God. Our minds are literally, perhaps biologically different than yours. We're not able to take things on "faith." That's what and who we are -- and we can't change that aspect of our identity any more than we can change into a raccoon. How would punishing us help anyone or prove a point? Merely seeing God when we die would have us on our knees admitting we were wrong and asking for forgiveness ... torturing us forever isn't going to convince us *more* that we were wrong.
It makes no sense either as a punishment or as a tool that a truly good and just and loving God would ever employ.
And I'll give you credit for not getting angry that I didn't give him purely rave reviews. I do think his heart is in the right place.

Absolutely awesome post, Shirina!!

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Absolutely awesome post, Shirina!!

It's a load of garbage and sad that you praise someone who hates God and the Bible.

1 John 2:15

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

It's a load of garbage and sad that you praise someone who hates God and the Bible.

1 John 2:15

Which means he doesn't have a rebuttal for it...other than a useless bible verse.

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by Shirina

On the contrary. I use that term because that's what I really think. You have given me *no* reason to think otherwise even when I've practically laid out a red carpet for you to prove you're not. Just the fact that you sat there defending Pat Robertson who endorses all kinds of fascist policies and actions says a lot about your stance.

In other words, pedestal postering. You say nothing here to refute my point.

Originally Posted by Shirina

From what I can tell, you essentially *do* want everyone forced to submit and follow Christianity. You just do it in an oblique way. Perhaps it is so oblique that you, yourself, are unaware of how fascistic it is? More on this in the next paragraph.

More of you saying something that is not really saying anything. If not wanting Christian businesses to have to be forced to embrace homosexuality means fascist then you have a warped definition of the term.
The irony is atheists DO want everyone to be forced to submit and embrace secularism and the LIE of evolutionary THEORY.

Originally Posted by Shirina

And there it is. THAT is where you become the fascist.

Why? It's because you have repeatedly said that your right to your beliefs are absolutely sacrosanct; your right to your beliefs take primacy over everyone *else's* beliefs -- which is why you fight so hard against gay marriage, among other things. When you say "and doesn't violate other people's rights," what you're *really* saying is that everyone *else* -- irrespective of *their* beliefs -- should be denied the freedom to make their own choices if any of those choices offend your religious sensibilities.

Stay out of my territory, and I'll stay out of yours. Unfortunately, gay marriage crosses into my territory. It takes a beautiful God created institution and perverts it. This has nothing to do with allowing gay couples to be allowed to have full rights and benefits of a partnership. The push for gay marriage was really the push to FORCE all of society to embrace it as natural and normal.

Originally Posted by Shirina

I would also point out the innumerable times I have seen threads about whackjob Christian extremists on this board doing and saying nasty things about gays and atheists ... and where were *you* Jeff?

Well such threads really served no purpose other than Christian bashing, but I made it clear that I did not support their rhetoric like the Arizona pastor.

Originally Posted by Shirina

Instead, you lurk in those threads and wait until an atheist says something -- and then you attack the atheist. Yep, that's exactly what you do. Silence implies consent, Jeff. I mean, it's not as if you just didn't bother participating in that thread. Oh no. You were there reading what was being said -- and you *could* have chimed in to say that what those Christians were saying was wrong.

Which I did, but of course, you would never give me credit for that.

Originally Posted by Shirina

But you didn't. You *never* did. Like I said, you remained silent until an *atheist* said something you didn't like. Then you were right there, attacking the atheist and often *defending* the nasty fascist Christian with *everything* you have. That makes you a fascist, Jeff. You've defended the fascists against atheists way too many times for me to think you're anything else.

It doesn't even matter what the Christians say, either. It could be the judge who said that atheists have no Constitutional rights. It could be the former president who said atheists aren't American citizens and certainly not patriots. It could be the pastor who believes the government should begin a campaign of genocide against gays -- or the three presidential candidates who gave speeches at his rally.

Nonsense. I certainly wouldn't support throwing atheists in jail. OTOH, your side had no problem with a Christian being imprisoned because she would not accept gay marriage, or seeing businesses destroyed because they would not accept it either. Submit or BE PUNISHED. That's secular fascism right there! So now you are sounding quite hypocritical to me.

Originally Posted by Shirina

Who gives a damn about *that* when a baker might have to make a cake for a gay couple, right? I mean, can't you see the difference in severity, here? And yet even with remarks like the ones said above, we atheists don't even have the right to fight back here on this forum, much less in the real world, because you *always* jump in and cry about how Christians are being persecuted when it is quite CLEARLY the atheists and gays who are being persecuted.

See, you are too biased to see the problem objectively. Because YOU think gay marriage is wonderful and good then you think it is silly that we won't bake cakes for them. I've tried to make comparisons to something that you would find offensive and wrong, and your side just refuses to address that point.

Originally Posted by Shirina

Come now, Jeff. I found my way here from the jungles of unmoderated forums, where I've been since 1998. This is the first truly moderated forum I've written for, and I almost quit a couple of times because I was getting posts deleted left and right due to always running afoul of the rules. I even got hit with a 7 day ban-hammer last year for over-doing things. It took me quite awhile to get used to not being able to say *precisely* what I think.

That is NOT a challenge you want to make, my dear.

Typical. You won't face me in PM because u need your own cheering section here. I've dealt with much worse than you. That tends to happen when you are a member of team Satan and a slave to death.

Originally Posted by Shirina

LOL! Get real. In case you've forgotten, I'm disabled. I can only type so many post per day and then I have to quit as the pain in my hands grows so harsh that even the pain meds I take can't cope. Remember that drowning me out with a 12 vs. 1 shouting match doesn't mean they win and I lose. Volume doesn't equate to victory. Anyone on forums knows that.

I wish you would tell your atheists friends that volume doesn't equal victory. So many times, ya'll claim to have run me off when the reality is that I simply don't have time or energy to respond to everyone.