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I'm struggling with this concept of non-existent events that we're tricked into believing. I'm struggling because as a wildlife biologist and sometime evolutionary geneticist, I'm fully aware of the behavior of free-ranging animals who preceded us in our long evolutionary development. Apes, tigers, monkeys and small rodents all have the necessary sensing hairs in their ears, the exact same ones we have in ours, which also vibrate (demonstrably so) identically to ours (but often with slightly different resonant frequencies (Example: see bloodhounds with their extremely sensitive hearing) under the influence of sound waves. No shamery, no imaginnig, just an auditory imput which travels as electro-nerve (neuroptic synapses, acetyl choline chloride and so on, as I recall from.... ≈30 yrs ago... has it changed since then??) through to their brains, where their inherited experiential base tells them what to do with it.
Ditto, we interpret with our imaginations, (the very thing so absent in a bear's or otter's or even Bonobo monkey's mindset) but with our added propensity for imaginative, vast and unfettered creativity, coupled with our known fear of the unknown, quite the fun story set. The Christian church has worked long and hard to demolish all the other versions and outcomes, and therefore to settle the world on the Absolutism of Abraham.
Those stimuli would normally give us that propensity to not only just react (as is: moving away, towards, or indifferently to... such stimuli). We quivering hominids have developed a convenient set of theories, hypotheses and consistent fairy tales. Science's process, of course, has diminished such colorful stories, which despite their somewhat global similarities (after all, the stimuli are consistent world-wide, and the resonant stores have fluorished accordingly: fire gods, rain gods, coyote gods, Abrahamic gods, and so on..)
So these imaginings, however conveniently useful, have no good factual basis, and to make up ever more complex ideas to prop up their surety, is in no way convincing. Mystic, you do an admirable job of such "propestry", [I juss luvs to make up appropriate words!] what with the fields, the EM stuff that apparently is differentiable and interceptible only by the hominid brain. But I don't buy it. Esp. when it only serves to prop up that same ol' same ol' ancient stuff which has been pre-demolished. It's like going into an eroding, collapsing structure...
Because you have refused to acknowledge that sensing fields is another sense modality. We can question the interpretations of our senses (hallucinations, internal voices, etc.) . . . but we acknowledge that the very existence of each sense is evidence that what they sense CAN be real. Our inability to validate what is sensed "in_other_ways" is our limitation . . . but not contra-evidence.
You are misrepresenting what is occurring. We do not trick the brain into "thinking" that ANY specific thing or condition exists. We just expose it to EM fields. The brain does the specific interpretations. This suggests that there exists field stimuli or conditions that would properly be interpreted that way. It also suggests that field phenomena can not only interact with the brain but affect it. This makes healing by fields a possible modality for Christ's healing. You can doubt these things . . . but you cannot dismiss them cavalierly out of hand as you do because we lack some current method of testing them "in_other_ways."
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Originally Posted by monumentus
I thought it important to point out that our ability to trick the brain into experiencing events or presences does not in any way evidence the claim that those events are in reality possible or the presences actually exist. A point that you have not debunked at all except with a random analogy to sound. The issue with the "sound" analogy however is that sound is something that can be evidenced independantly of the human sense of hearing so the analogy is a failed one.
I have repeatedly addressed this . . . as in the post above . . . but you have ignored every attempt and simply repeated this nonsense ad nauseum. You refuse to answer WHY the brain's ability to sense fields is treated differently from the other senses? A sense is a sense and it responds to stimuli in our reality. On what basis do you decide that only the senses that we can validate in_another_way are legitimately capable of responding to real stimuli or conditions in the environment? Once the brain has been shown to respond to and interpret certain stimuli . . . the interpretations that it produces must be considered as indications of the type of conditions or stimuli that exist. All our senses are interpreted and the stimuli do not correspond to the interpretations. This suggests that the brain is configured to interpret certain stimuli in certain ways.
Brain interpretations exist for a reason. Just because we only know and can validate in_other_ways those connected with our known sensory inputs from our reality . . . does not make the sensing of fields less so. Over 95% of our reality is beyond our known sensory systems. To presume that the brain interpretations of fields are NOT capable of sensing anything from that 95% is extreme bias. Producing the brain interpretations artificially does nothing to suggest that the actual conditions they are supposed to respond to do not exist. You are dismissing a direct inference from the brain's existing responses to sensory input just because we do not currently have a way to validate it in_other_ways. You need a stronger reason than that to dismiss a known function of the brain.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 01-23-2013 at 12:41 PM..
^ You are not being ignored. I just do not find your points to be relevant to mine. Nor am I "treating anything differently".
The point again that you refuse to address: If you artificially stimulate the brain to sense something that is not there or an event that has not actually occured - this is in no way evidence that the "something" actually exists or the "event" is actually possible.
If you think it is evidence for this then by all means explain how. How is tricking the brain artificially to think it is outside it's own body evidence that ones consciousness actually can go outside ones own body? Explain away, this should be good.
Absolutely right. One thing worth being aware of here in any conversation on this topic is to notice willful misuse of the word "sense" where it occurs. And it really does often occur.
The brain uses electrical impulses to pass information around and interpret it. These electrical impulses often come from the "senses". Senses are things that translate real world events... sound, the application of heat, touch, light and so forth... into electrical impulses the brain can read and interpret.
Passing a persons brain through an electrical field and causing chaotic results inside the brain is not a "sense". The brain is not "sensing" these things in any real way. The word that has been used in the thread so far is "artificial". "Artificially" putting electrical input into a brain is not the same as the brain "sensing" these things.
What actually is happening is the brain is receiving these artificial signals and is trying to interpret them under the "assumption" that they have come from the "normal" sources. It is not "sensing" our artificial stimulus per se but rather receiving electrical inputs and force-parsing them through a system that is assuming they are coming from the bodies sensory system.
If you artificially electrically stimulate the heat sensor in a persons hand the brain is not "sensing" your electricity per se. It is receiving stimulus from the heat sensing path ways and is rendering and parsing them in a way that is saying "Stimulation has come from the heat sensing nerves therefore there must be heat there".
Similarly is you stimulate artificially the areas of the brain that normally tell the brain where you are located in space then the brain is going to parse this in a way that gives a nonsense result such as "I appear to be outside my own body". It would be a mistake of the most opportunistic proportions to try and suggest that this suggests the human conscious mind is actually capable of traveling outside it's own body.
All the brain can do is operate under the assumption that these inputs are coming from the usual inputs the brain uses. Since that assumption in artificial scenarios is false... so too are the result the brain therefore outputs. As with any system "Crap in = Crap out". Getting crap out of a system and then trying to extrapolate claims about our universe off the back of them really does belie the desperation inherent in the theistic position.
^ You are not being ignored. I just do not find your points to be relevant to mine. Nor am I "treating anything differently".
Yes you are treating the brain's ability to sense fields differently from its ability to take other stimuli from the environment and interpret them. I know why you do not consider it relevant. You cannot answer it without revealing your bias and double standard driven by atheism.
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The point again that you refuse to address: If you artificially stimulate the brain to sense something that is not there or an event that has not actually occured - this is in no way evidence that the "something" actually exists or the "event" is actually possible.
If you think it is evidence for this then by all means explain how. How is tricking the brain artificially to think it is outside it's own body evidence that ones consciousness actually can go outside ones own body? Explain away, this should be good.
Stop misrepresenting what is being done. The brain is not being specifically tricked into sensing anything. It is simply being exposed to fields. The brain decides how to interpret what the fields mean. Our entire reality exists within a universal field (probably of the dark energy/matter type that is not currently accessible to our instruments). There is no "outside" within the universal field. Our Spirit's sense of its "location" within the universal field is typically determined by the physical sensors of the body . . . giving the illusion that its locus is within the body. But our Spirit is an energy field phenomenon that actually resides within the universal field itself. It is only temporally associated with the body while we are physically alive and reproducing more of it as we think and feel. By shutting down the "thinking and feeling" machinery . . . we can access our actual state and locus which is interpreted by the brain as no longer attached to the physical body.
Yes the brain is being tricked. Nor does it "decide" how to interpret the artificial data you are exposing it to. It does not have such a choice. As the convieniently ignored post above you points out the brain has no choice but to assume the input has come from the sources at the other end of the input pathways it received it from.
So if you get the link between the ear and the brain and use artificial means to drop nonsense input into the middle of that system - the brain has no choice but to interpret it as sound data.
And if you get the link between the sense of balance+position and the brain and drop nonsense input into the middle of that system - the brain has no choice but to interpret it as balance and position data.
And much like your own posts since you are putting nonsense into a system you get nonsense results out of it too - such as the brain thinking position is off and you are therefore somehow "outside" your own body. You feed in false position data - the brain will calculate a false position result.
The brain is not sensing the field. The field is interfereing with what the brain is sensing.
So to repeat for the tenth or so time: Tricking the brain into thinking it is outside it's own body is -not- evidence that human consciousness actually can leave it's own body.
Please send me the link to download the pdf, Geoff.
This resonates with my Synthesis and my considering the energy field phenomena of dark energy, dark matter, and consciousness to be equivalent types of field energy that are currently unmeasurable.
This is the path to the dark side of the force...Re read the exodus and the tent of meeting...a Darkness was over it...God?..or ...$atan?...Laws of Life were/was.is Given!..to put into our hearts, minds, and spirit to uphold...all of them....and Jesus/Jeshua added one more!...and kicked $$$ out of that house of God in heaven, and on Earth!...to make it righteous enough to return to God!...someone or something has brought it back in to play again....THE IDOL TOLD NOT TO MAKE MORE IMPORTANT THAN HE GOD..FOR LIFE OR LIVING>the opposing force of GOD which is sin and evil ..is again on Earth...and people support it ..by using it for life...thinking it is ok to use...and causing exactly what Jesus said will be with it...SIN AND EVIL..as it creates the opposing force of God....True?...and GOD OPPOSES THAT..and DESTROYS IT....So..be forewarned?....>STOP USING IT< STOP ASKING FOR IT> STOP NEEDING IT> and or working for it...for it is evil...>>AND GIVE EVERYTHING TO GOD>>AND EACHOTHER!...and less SIN AND EVIL WILL BE!= plausable truth?...Proven truth!...SO we were shown!...and So we should Know!....THE COMMANDMENT OF THE IDOL...?...or live and die holding onto it?..continually with woe, wrath and pestilences upon us with terror and wars and hatred and suffering?...and they ask for more of it...MONEY...when money does not do anything either way to solve for it....infact it creates it..by..(Being disobediant to God = sin= breaking of the commandment about it...IDOLATRY...)=death....and so there it is again......and putting back a plant where it belongs SINLESSLY for GOD and in tending and keeping the GARDEN ... Goes UNDONE and in constant bloodshed.. ...should it be forth coming anytime soon?..to reverse the curse of Death?...hmmmm
Yes the brain is being tricked. Nor does it "decide" how to interpret the artificial data you are exposing it to. It does not have such a choice. As the convieniently ignored post above you points out the brain has no choice but to assume the input has come from the sources at the other end of the input pathways it received it from.
So if you get the link between the ear and the brain and use artificial means to drop nonsense input into the middle of that system - the brain has no choice but to interpret it as sound data.
And if you get the link between the sense of balance+position and the brain and drop nonsense input into the middle of that system - the brain has no choice but to interpret it as balance and position data.
And much like your own posts since you are putting nonsense into a system you get nonsense results out of it too - such as the brain thinking position is off and you are therefore somehow "outside" your own body. You feed in false position data - the brain will calculate a false position result.
The brain is not sensing the field. The field is interfereing with what the brain is sensing.
So to repeat for the tenth or so time: Tricking the brain into thinking it is outside it's own body is -not- evidence that human consciousness actually can leave it's own body.
This is Not True....Jesus was Killed...Jesus was dead for a x amount of time...his conciousness resided somewhere outside of his dead body...His dead body was then raised up back to life...and he re entered it as himself....So what kept his spirit?...as I know something of this out of body estate has and is happening to people...as I am one of them...who has experienced it...could be brought on by tramma or uncontrolled states of dreed...depression of our state of being...meditation...or conditioning of the minds alpha or delta or other frequencies...if tuned to the right one...the body can release the spirit....from sin and evil...in some cases!
TO KEEP IS FROM SIN AND EVIL BEING DONE ONTO IT...or so it was with JESUS...and then...TO prove it to be so...Jesus showed them DEATH IS A DELUSION BROUGHT ON BY SIN AND EVIL HE WOULD NOT DO.
This is Not True....Jesus was Killed...Jesus was dead for a x amount of time...his conciousness resided somewhere outside of his dead body...His dead body was then raised up back to life...and he re entered it as himself....
So did Gandalf the Magician. However is there any evidence at all that said events actually occurred or are you just taking the books word for it? If one is going to establish another as being a "great healer" which is the topic of this thread then one should first establish he or she actually did what it was claimed they did.
This is Not True....Jesus was Killed...Jesus was dead for a x amount of time...his conciousness resided somewhere outside of his dead body...His dead body was then raised up back to life...and he re entered it as himself....So what kept his spirit?...as I know something of this out of body estate has and is happening to people...as I am one of them...who has experienced it...could be brought on by tramma or uncontrolled states of dreed...depression of our state of being...meditation...or conditioning of the minds alpha or delta or other frequencies...if tuned to the right one...the body can release the spirit....from sin and evil...in some cases!
That much I do know is true!
As they say on wikipedia:
<citation needed>
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