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Why do you think we need to change marriage to include 2 people of the same gender? Why is it needed?
Why is your marriage needed?
How does your marriage affect two gay men in Cleveland? I can assure you they don't care about your marriage.
The Christian conservative crowd is VERY good at deciding how others should live. Thankfully, this is 2014 and the Special Snowflake theory of marriage: "must be straight to be married" is going the way of "must be the same race to get married". "Going, going, gone! Sold! To the nice gay couple in Santa Barbara who will now be able to do all the things the Special Snowflakes do. But with more panache."
I'm not the one advocating a change of the status quo. It's not up to me to defend marriage.
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How does your marriage affect two gay men in Cleveland? I can assure you they don't care about your marriage.
As I said, it's irrelevant.
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The Christian conservative crowd is VERY good at deciding how others should live.
And is that wrong? If so...why? Why are you allowed to decide but not anyone else?
But, as I said, we're not the ones arguing for a change. You are the one arguing for change, so it's up to YOU to demonstrate a need for it.
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Thankfully, this is 2014 and the Special Snowflake theory of marriage: "must be straight to be married" is going the way of "must be the same race to get married". "Going, going, gone! Sold! To the nice gay couple in Santa Barbara who will now be able to do all the things the Special Snowflakes do. But with more panache."
Oh no, it's not aggressive. I don't think anyone should be making bare assertions that are left unchallenged. If Vizio is going to say that gays control Christians with fascistic laws (which he did) then I want to know WHAT laws. He doesn't get a free pass to lie about what's going on simply because you think asking pertinent questions is "aggressive."
Speaking of bare assertions, there's one right there. How do YOU know that there's no 'mating connection' between two gay people? You seem to have a lot of "inside information" - are you gay? Have gays told you there is no "intrinsic foundation" to their relationship? From where are you getting your information? Because knowing what I know, it sounds to me like you're making stuff up.
Oh? Does your spouse know that you don't have any feelings for her? You better keep that a secret since marriage isn't about feelings - she might be upset to know that your marriage is more of a sterile business partnership than a romantic relationship. Don't worry, I won't tell.
Now we're back to bare assertions since you apparently have this "knowledge" that gays cannot have the same bond as straight couples. What on earth makes you think this is true?
You better believe it is a religious argument. This wouldn't even be an issue if not for the meddling of religion into secular affairs. Yes, marriages are secular in nature as it is the government that issues the license. The church only performs the ceremony. Two people can be legally married with nothing but the secular license, but a couple cannot be legally married with just the ceremony. So yes, marriages are very much secular - where religion need not go.
But I have seen the speeches, the crusades, the rallies, and the debates of those who are against same-sex marriage, and they can't go 60 seconds without mentioning God, the Bible, "our Creator," or some other reference to religion. God this, the Bible that, our Creater thinks blah and blah. Religion has its fingerprints all over this issue.
No, it's the other way around. The bigots are the ones using religion - using Old Testament laws like the ones in Leviticus to justify a hatred and disgust of homosexuals that would exist with or without religion. But hey, why not cherry pick a few irrelevant verses from the Old Testament to justify why I don't like gays! Yeah! And so the bigots hide behind religion, using it as a shield against people like me who call them to the carpet for their dishonesty.
As for answering questions - sorry, but like I said, no bare assertions here. If someone is going to make accusations, then, as an advocate for gay rights, I have the duty to demand the source of those accusations as well as the information behind them. People just don't get to disparage gays and not have to answer for it.
Are you suggesting that opinions cannot be "cruel and aggressive"? Because they can, you know.
Yep, that is true. Just think of the millions of gays who are deeply hurt by their state's refusal to recognize their marriages - even legal marriages issued by another state. It means that, were I gay and I got into a car accident in a gay-unfriendly state, I would have NO visitation rights to see my spouse in the hospital, nor could I make any medical decisions on her behalf should she be incapable of making them herself. It means any child that biologically belongs to my spouse but who I was raising as a parent, would end up in foster care instead of with me. And the list goes on and on. All because of a bunch of ridiculous Bronze Age superstitions.
To answer from the top paragraph, put it this way..
if my family was walking down the street all 11 plus the youngsters, two prof parents , all very successful and two gay guy's were coming toward doing something obviously making a statement about it, the whole family would not say a word and collectively start heading across the street. I can see my father blocking my mother's visual in posture .
It's not part of our upbringing or life or environment in any way and do not care to be around the idea.
It would be a negative for the grandchildren from the adult world, among other stemming negatives.
Adults are adults and always have an impression on youngster's. Very simple to understand. Example and example in many ways is one of the most important things in a young healthy youngster's life.
How do I know there is no real mating connection between gay people ? that is not a workable question to take seriously and it's not my fault, I didn't create the world.
About my spouse I'm only in promise.
Yes it is a religious topic in that it deals with the guidance of whatever religion, that's what I said as a condition. People believe god made the world and put our ears where they are for hearing, not eating if that's any help.
Last bit in entry is correct as well. The media and movements together with culture are using this subject for ratings, money and other political goals.
Ultimately they couldn't care less about anything or anyone.
So it is divisive for 'the whole ' and draws out opinion from all. Even to qualify for talking about is ridiculous, if people are gay, or there are gay people the issue doesn't need to be broadcasted all over the place as though anyone cares . Homosexuality has obviously been around for a long time, people have things to do. Now for a church and consultation that is a completely different thing.
Consultation and public talking are not equal and cannot be treated equally. Your trying to draw out what would be things in the area of consultation, *evidence being the specific chosen area of choice in very large forum, and there is a difference, plus it becomes un-organized. That's one of the reasons this subject convo never works.
Last edited by alexcanter; 01-09-2014 at 01:01 PM..
Because I don't get to define the word, and neither do you. Words have meanings. I guess I'd question why you think you do?
It's affect on me directly is irrelevant. It's not an issue when it comes to me deciding I want or don't want a law.
Why do you think we need to change marriage to include 2 people of the same gender? Why is it needed?
You're really stuck on this "definition" thing but you still refuse to answer why you are so unwilling to share marriage with homosexuals.
And I know why. You do too.
The fact that you're too ashamed to admit it here in front of all the members of this forum speaks volumes. Sometimes silence can be louder than a scream.
I don't care about the definition. It's merely semantics. There is a REASON why you want to keep the word "marriage" all to yourself and it has nothing to do with definitions. That argument is just a red herring, a distraction from the REAL reason, the reason you don't want to admit because it would make you look pretty bad, wouldn't it.
Yes, I think it would.
As for why it's needed, well, because there are over 2,000 government benefits that gay couples will not be able to get without a legal marriage - everything from child custody to hospital visitation rights are in limbo for gay couples without a marriage license. That is a tangible, easily-proven, undeniable reason why gay marriage is needed.
Why do YOU care if the status quo is changed? Oh, I'm sure this will be another question that you'll ignore or twist into something unrecognizeable, but I am curious. You'rre putting a lot of stock in merely keeping things the same without offering up a REASON why we should.
Why SHOULD we maintain the status quo? What is the harm in changing it? What do we gain by keeping it the same?
More questions that I'm quite certain will be left unanswered, but they deserve to be asked.
The answers, though, would be rather ... incriminating ... wouldn't they, Vizio? Because I've heard all of this before and I know exactly where you're heading.
Why do you think we need to change marriage to include 2 people of the same gender? Why is it needed?
Marriage is when two persons commit to share their lives intimately and exclusively with each other. The gender of the two persons is irrelevant. Whether or not they have children, or naturally born children, is irrelevant. Irrelevancies should be removed from laws, as they have the effect of arbitrarily excluding people for irrelevant reasons.
The key issue is whether gender is relevant. "Between a man and woman" is an uphill argument because other than marriage between persons of the same gender being unfamiliar, non-traditional or uncomfortable for some people, there is no basis to prohibit it. Trying to make a peripheral consideration central, trying to create false equivalence between homosexuality and things like murder or rape, trying to argue that gays make bad parents contrary to empirical research, or simply asserting that homosexuality is evil based on your pet holy book, are all attempts to manufacture reasons when none exist.
Indeed, just yesterday, I heard a spectacularly lame argument against gay marriage -- not that gays make inferior parents, but that they MIGHT make inferior parents and we should not permit it until more study is done over a long period of time. Rather like saying we should outlaw driving Chevrolets because we need a twenty year study to establish that they are as good as Fords.
Besides, all this high dudgeon about marriage is disingenuous. We currently allow marriage between people who are too young, not financially sound and/or uneducated and for whom we do zero to vet that their maturity, responsibility, impulse control, etc are at levels sufficient to have healthy, non-abusive relationships. And there is no further societal sanction required to then go ahead and have children on top of it with all the knock-on effects that go along with doing so.
We don't care who gets married, including two uneducated, inexperienced, hormone-crazed yahoos, and we don't care whether they have children and what they do to them. And yet suddenly we care very much about the dignity and "sanctity" of marriage just because we've belatedly realized that gay people fall in love, too.
If we had some sort of actual standards for marriage other than "older than X years, no STDs and pay a small fee" and if half of all marriages (marriages between Christians included) didn't end in divorce anyway, I'd have more sympathy for people who are reluctant to mess with the parameters. But the truth is, marriage has low barriers to entry already. It's no accomplishment to be married. So let's drop all this bluster about how marriage is being "ruined" by including gays. Maybe gays should worry more about marriage ruining THEM.
I'm not the one advocating a change of the status quo. It's not up to me to defend marriage.
But you are. Why is that, I wonder?
As I said, it's irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
And is that wrong? If so...why? Why are you allowed to decide but not anyone else?
I wasn't going to respond to this post until I saw the above quote. Are you REALLY going to sit here and defend Christians telling everyone else how they live their lives? Do you have NO conception of the word "freedom" and the RIGHT not to be forced to adhere to your religion?
Are you even an American?
No, we aren't deciding for YOU how to live your life, Vizio. We just want the freedom to decide how we live OUR lives - without Christian meddling. That means if gays want to get married, LET 'em.
No one is telling you that you now must divorce your wife and marry another man. THAT would be controlling your life. THAT would be fascism. But none of that is happening yet you seem completely incapable of making that distinction. You think that if someone is given the freedom to make a choice that YOU wouldn't make for yourself, well, we should BAN it! BAN that choice so that no one can exist outside of the bounds of what is acceptable to Christianity!
Which says a lot about other sins like, say, adultery which has no laws associated with it. I guess that's because enough Christians get busted cheating on their spouses that they would be very unhappy if adulterers were forbidden by law to ever marry again. But blech! Gays? Icky-poo! We need to keep them in thier place!
Yeah, we get it. Of course, why would it be wrong for Muslims to tell YOU how to live your life? Hmmm?
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Originally Posted by Vizio
But, as I said, we're not the ones arguing for a change. You are the one arguing for change, so it's up to YOU to demonstrate a need for it.
Why? Because we WANT change. The majority of Americans support a national marriage equality law. In other words, they support gay marriage. Country after country are starting to legalize same-sex couples, lighting up like stars at twilight ... and I'm sure that people like you will make sure that our star is the last to light up, a black hole of regressive and superstitious policies. Because you don't see anything wrong with Christians telling everyone else how to live their lives.
Heh. And you have the temerity to call OUR side fascists. Heh. Heh.
But you are. Why is that, I wonder?
As I said, it's irrelevant.
Marriage has historically been a man and a woman. I'm not the one suggesting we change that.
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I wasn't going to respond to this post until I saw the above quote. Are you REALLY going to sit here and defend Christians telling everyone else how they live their lives? Do you have NO conception of the word "freedom" and the RIGHT not to be forced to adhere to your religion?
Are you even an American?
No...I'm really not. We don't base laws on religion. But then, I question why you think it's wrong for us to dictate how people live, while you seem to be quite willing to force your will on me.
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No, we aren't deciding for YOU how to live your life, Vizio. We just want the freedom to decide how we live OUR lives - without Christian meddling. That means if gays want to get married, LET 'em.
Actually, you are. You are telling me how to think.
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No one is telling you that you now must divorce your wife and marry another man. THAT would be controlling your life. THAT would be fascism. But none of that is happening yet you seem completely incapable of making that distinction. You think that if someone is given the freedom to make a choice that YOU wouldn't make for yourself, well, we should BAN it! BAN that choice so that no one can exist outside of the bounds of what is acceptable to Christianity!
But you are advocating that we change the definition of "marriage". That is fascism. You don't have the right to define that.
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Which says a lot about other sins like, say, adultery which has no laws associated with it. I guess that's because enough Christians get busted cheating on their spouses that they would be very unhappy if adulterers were forbidden by law to ever marry again. But blech! Gays? Icky-poo! We need to keep them in thier place!
Yeah, we get it. Of course, why would it be wrong for Muslims to tell YOU how to live your life? Hmmm?
Blah blah blah. You're a hypocrite. You hate me telling you how to live but you think you can tell me how to live.
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Why? Because we WANT change. The majority of Americans support a national marriage equality law.
In other words, they support gay marriage. Country after country are starting to legalize same-sex couples, lighting up like stars at twilight ... and I'm sure that people like you will make sure that our star is the last to light up, a black hole of regressive and superstitious policies. Because you don't see anything wrong with Christians telling everyone else how to live their lives.
So let the people vote on it. If the people vote for it, fine. I don't see your side willing to go with the vote of the people, though. Prop 8 was a clear example of that.
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Heh. And you have the temerity to call OUR side fascists. Heh. Heh.
So tell me ... why is it immoral?
Because it's a deviant sexual behavior. It has traditionally been considered immoral.
Not one ... not ONE of my questions were answered. Nope.
Vizio just repeated himself as if he's reading from a script and doesn't know what to say if he is forced to deviate from it - so he just reads the script again for lack of anything else to do.
Everything is an appeal to tradition - "But that's how we've always done it!"
Never mind how the whole world is changing - well, except for the Middle East, but hey, that's the way America is in the 21st Century - a nation fast becoming regressive and anything BUT free. Perhaps we should start changing some lyrics in our patriotic songs to get rid of the word "freedom" and make more references to God.
As for Vizio telling us how we're the ones controlling and dictating his life, he can't even answer how. You'd think that something which affects his life so deeply would be easy to explain, but no ... he just keeps asserting that our side is controlling his side without giving even one example of just HOW his life is being affected. Nope, not a one.
And no, Vizio, changing marriage to include gays neither affects you or controls you.
And THIS comment is just beyond the pale:
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Actually, you are. You are telling me how to think.
I don't know. I mean ... I just don't even know what to say anymore. I feel like I'm talking to someone who is talking to someone else on a cell phone and our conversations are getting mixed up ... because I just don't understand where these fantasies are coming from.
It should be quite apparent to everyone that letting gays get married has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with how or what Vizio thinks, but you heard the man. He believes it does, for some inexplicable reason. Of course I'd ask him what he's talking about but he would just repeat himself so there's no point in bothering.
No, Vizio, you are completely free to think whatever you want. Gay marriage will NOT require you to report to the Governmental Office of the Gay Agenda and submit to a lobotomy. You are perfectly free to cuddle up with your Bible and think bad thoughts about those evil and immoral gays
Because, hey, it's ALWAYS been immoral, right? So it should stay immoral. Just like it was one immoral to teach a black person how to read. Yeah, you could even go to jail for that. We should bring that 400 year-old tradition back, shouldn't we, Vizio? I'm not even sure what humans are doing out of their caves since getting where we are now reqjuied a whole lotta change.
Anyhow I can't go any further in this discussion since the conversation can't progress without questions being answered.
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