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And how would they know since the NT is our only source material?
The video is more about the general reliability of the New Testament, than of Jesus' statements in particular. Anyways, we know one of Jesus' famous famous statements that is 100%, no doubt, made-up: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Given that it was added to the Bible centuries later but sounds like something Jesus would actually say, we have to wonder how many of Jesus' statements recorded in the Gospels are real and how many were cleverly added later. It's difficult to believe that Jesus claimed to be God when 3 of 4 Gospel writers, supposedly his disciples, don't mention the fact. That seems like an important thing to include, doesn't it?
Anyways, we know one of Jesus' famous famous statements that is 100%, no doubt, made-up: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Given that it was added to the Bible centuries later but sounds like something Jesus would actually say, we have to wonder how many of Jesus' statements recorded in the Gospels are real and how many were cleverly added later.
I wasn't aware the debate over the authenticity of the Pericope Adulterae had been settled. Do you have supporting documentation?
I wasn't aware the debate over the authenticity of the Pericope Adulterae had been settled.
I wasn't aware that there existed any real debate over it. That said, I don't expect any debate over a religious issue to ever be "settled." When people have psychological/social/emotional reasons to believe something, they ignore the disconfirming evidence.
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Do you have supporting documentation?
Yea, pick up a pew Bible in front of you during church tomorrow and read the footnotes on the story.
The video is more about the general reliability of the New Testament, than of Jesus' statements in particular. Anyways, we know one of Jesus' famous famous statements that is 100%, no doubt, made-up: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Given that it was added to the Bible centuries later but sounds like something Jesus would actually say, we have to wonder how many of Jesus' statements recorded in the Gospels are real and how many were cleverly added later.
The pericope is not found in any place in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts; neither in the two 3rd century papyrus witnesses to John - P66 and P75; nor in the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, although all four of these manuscripts may acknowledge the existence of the passage via diacritical marks at the spot. The first surviving Greek manuscript to contain the pericope is the Latin/Greek diglot Codex Bezae of the late 4th or early 5th century. It is also the earliest surviving Latin manuscript to contain it; 17 of the 23 Old Latin manuscripts of John 7-8 contain at least part of the Pericope. Papias (circa AD 125) refers to a story of Jesus and a woman "accused of many sins" as being found in the Gospel of the Hebrews, which may well refer to this passage; there is a very certain quotation of the pericope adulterae in the 3rd Century Syriac Didascalia Apostolorum; though without indicating John's Gospel. The Constitutions of the Holy Apostles Book II.24 refers to the passage “And when the elders had set another woman who had sinned before Him, and had left the sentence to Him, and were gone out, our Lord, the Searcher of the hearts, inquiring of her whether the elders had condemned her, and being answered No, He said unto her: “Go thy way therefore, for neither do I condemn thee.†Book II is generally dated to the late third century (Von Drey, Krabbe, Bunsen, Funk).[11]Codex Fuldensis, which is positively dated to AD 546 contains the adulterae pericope. The Second Epistle of Pope Callistus section 6[12] contains a quote that may be from John 8:11 - "Let him see to it that he sin no more, that the sentence of the Gospel may abide in him: “Go, and sin no more.â€" However the epistle quotes from eighth century writings and is not thought to be genuine.[13]
Until recently, it was not thought that any Greek Church Father had taken note of the passage before the 12th Century; but in 1941 a large collection of the writings of Didymus the Blind (ca. 313- 398) was discovered in Egypt, including a reference to the pericope adulterae as being found in "several copies"; and it is now considered established that this passage was present in its usual place in some Greek manuscripts known in Alexandria and elsewhere from the 4th Century onwards. In support of this it is noted that the 4th century Codex Vaticanus, which was written in Egypt, marks the end of John chapter 7 with an "umlaut", indicating that an alternative reading was known at this point. Jerome reports that the pericope adulterae was to be found in its usual place in "many Greek and Latin manuscripts" in Rome and the Latin West in the late 4th Century. This is confirmed by some Latin Fathers of the 4th and 5th Centuries CE; including Ambrose, and Augustine. The latter claimed that the passage may have been improperly excluded from some manuscripts in order to avoid the impression that Christ had sanctioned adultery:
"Certain persons of little faith, or rather enemies of the true faith, fearing, I suppose, lest their wives should be given impunity in sinning, removed from their manuscripts the Lord's act of forgiveness toward the adulteress, as if he who had said, Sin no more, had granted permission to sin."[14]
It's difficult to believe that Jesus claimed to be God when 3 of 4 Gospel writers, supposedly his disciples, don't mention the fact. That seems like an important thing to include, doesn't it?
Jesus never once claimed to be God in the whole New Testament. He went to great pains to let it be known He was the Son of God, not "God the Son." He also told the disciples after He came out of the tomb that He was ascending to His Father and their Father and to His God and their God. Therefore, in a back handed way He was saying to them He was not their God but was going to where His and their God was.
Jesus never once claimed to be God in the whole New Testament. He went to great pains to let it be known He was the Son of God, not "God the Son." He also told the disciples after He came out of the tomb that He was ascending to His Father and their Father and to His God and their God. Therefore, in a back handed way He was saying to them He was not their God but was going to where His and their God was.
It is eminently logical to assume that Jesus, never having made any claims that was God the Son, but the Son of God, church fathers circa 100-400 AD would have to Deify Jesus if they were to have any hope that Christianity was going to stick around. No major religious figure, (Horus, Mithra, Zeus, etc) of worship could last long if he did not possess some qualities of Deity, so they set about to jimmie the scriptures to make sure it looked as if Jesus was proclaiming Himself to be God.
Addendum:
I listened to the first part of the debate (again--I had watched this a few months back) and Bart Erhman says exactly what I said above: in Matthew, Mark and Luke Jesus does not Deify Himself. Only in John do we have Jesus with the "I AM's" Ehrman asks, "If Jesus went around proclaiming Himself to be God, as only John says, why wasn't He stoned right on the spot? Further, why does John the Baptist, Jesus and the narrator (John the Apostle) all talk with the same voice? Because the gospel is recording what John wants Jesus to say, not what Jesus actually said."
Last edited by thrillobyte; 03-08-2014 at 01:26 PM..
It is eminently logical to assume that Jesus, never having made any claims that was God the Son, but the Son of God, church fathers circa 100-400 AD would have to Deify Jesus if they were to have any hope that Christianity was going to stick around. No major religious figure, (Horus, Mithra, Zeus, etc) of worship could last long if he did not possess some qualities of Deity, so they set about to jimmie the scriptures to make sure it looked as if Jesus was proclaiming Himself to be God.
Addendum:
I listened to the first part of the debate (again--I had watched this a few months back) and Bart Erhman says exactly what I said above: in Matthew, Mark and Luke Jesus does not Deify Himself. Only in John do we have Jesus with the "I AM's" Ehrman asks, "If Jesus went around proclaiming Himself to be God, as only John says, why wasn't He stoned right on the spot? Further, why does John the Baptist, Jesus and the narrator (John the Apostle) all talk with the same voice? Because the gospel is recording what John wants Jesus to say, not what Jesus actually said."
WoWoW!!
Who can forgive sins but God only! That's what the Pharisees said.(Marks Gospel) They knew what Jesus said.
The Pharisees said: Thou being a man makest thy self God.
12 different people called Jesus God - He never denied it once.
The Pharisees knew what Jesus was saying; & they took up stones !
Each of you offer nothing but excuses in persisting you know more than what is written.
You shall seek me & find ME - when you search for me with ALL your heart.
Who can forgive sins but God only! That's what the Pharisees said.(Marks Gospel) They knew what Jesus said.
The Pharisees said: Thou being a man makest thy self God.
12 different people called Jesus God - He never denied it once.
The Pharisees knew what Jesus was saying; & they took up stones !
Each of you offer nothing but excuses in persisting you know more than what is written.
You shall seek me & find ME - when you search for me with ALL your heart.
hardened stone cold hearts do not seek Him!
Jesus gave authority to the disciples to forgive sins or hold sins against certain Jews. That does not make the disciples God anymore than Jesus. God gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins too.
Obviously the Pharisees were wrong that only God can forgive sins as they were wrong about so many other things.
It is eminently logical to assume that Jesus, never having made any claims that was God the Son, but the Son of God, church fathers circa 100-400 AD would have to Deify Jesus if they were to have any hope that Christianity was going to stick around. No major religious figure, (Horus, Mithra, Zeus, etc) of worship could last long if he did not possess some qualities of Deity, so they set about to jimmie the scriptures to make sure it looked as if Jesus was proclaiming Himself to be God.
And Paul said after he left that grievous wolves would enter not sparing the flock. The withdrawal from the faith began right after Paul left as he said would occur. So just because some in the early church after Paul left tried to deify Christ does not mean they were correct.
Quote:
Addendum:
I listened to the first part of the debate (again--I had watched this a few months back) and Bart Erhman says exactly what I said above: in Matthew, Mark and Luke Jesus does not Deify Himself. Only in John do we have Jesus with the "I AM's"
Jesus saying that before Abraham was I am does not mean Jesus is the supreme, invisible God Who fills heaven and earth. It just means that Jesus existed before Abraham.
Quote:
Ehrman asks, "If Jesus went around proclaiming Himself to be God, as only John says, why wasn't He stoned right on the spot? Further, why does John the Baptist, Jesus and the narrator (John the Apostle) all talk with the same voice? Because the gospel is recording what John wants Jesus to say, not what Jesus actually said."
Ehrman needs to actually PROVE John was putting words in Jesus' mouth. Good luck Ehrman with that!
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