Christian morality: an atheist's point of view (mythology, after-life, Adam and Eve)

Originally Posted by Vizio

I have yet to see you give an answer that actually makes sense. Sorry..but you've failed to do that repeatedly. You've given answers...but when I point out that you're making assumptions instead of providing answers, you've given no coherent response.

How do you know it does not make sense - that is just your opinion, one which you have done nothing to explain away - see I can throw the same mud in your direction. Weeee! How productive.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Do you think God changes? Is he a man that he might change as the wind blows?

Of course he does. As you are fond of pointing out, he doesn't require burnt offerings anymore, for instance. He doesn't provide signs and wonders anymore. He doesn't mint any new prophets like he used to, and apparently doesn't command bears to maul indolent adolescents with insufficient respect for men of god.

More pertinently, evangelical morality has changed. Standards of dress and acceptable modes of entertainment are quite different from 100 years ago or even 50 years ago, except in retrograde pockets here and there. Bob Jones University comes to mind.

All morality changes. Not, as you hyperbolize, "with how the wind blows" as if it's all a whim, but certainly as undesirable outcomes force change in order for society to function and endure. Your morality changes too, it is no exception, though you like to imagine otherwise.

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by mordant

Of course he does. As you are fond of pointing out, he doesn't require burnt offerings anymore, for instance. He doesn't provide signs and wonders anymore. He doesn't mint any new prophets like he used to, and apparently doesn't command bears to maul indolent adolescents with insufficient respect for men of god.

Actually...no. He doesn't change. He still required a sacrifice. That's what Jesus did -- he sacrificed himself.

More pertinently, evangelical morality has changed. Standards of dress and acceptable modes of entertainment are quite different from 100 years ago or even 50 years ago, except in retrograde pockets here and there. Bob Jones University comes to mind.

Don't confuse God with churches.

All morality changes. Not, as you hyperbolize, "with how the wind blows" as if it's all a whim, but certainly as undesirable outcomes force change in order for society to function and endure. Your morality changes too, it is no exception, though you like to imagine otherwise.

No....what was wrong in 1960 (adultery, fornication, homosexuality, murder, theft, rape) was wrong then, and it's still wrong.

Yes God changes as is clear by his act of creation. If God is eternal and the creation is ontologically separate from God then there was a point in the mind of God that his will was not to create and that will changed so as to create - in fact thinking presupposes change. The only reason any creature acts in the first place is because they are dissatisfied with the present circumstances they find themselves in otherwise they would not act to affect those circumstances and change them. Now if God's will was always to create the universe then the universe would have been created an eternity ago since that will is eternal and would have been acted upon from eternity past. So what changed in the mind of God that at one point he did not want to create and at another he did so as to render the universe non-eternal?

See God does change.

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Yes God changes as is clear by his act of creation. If God is eternal and the creation is ontologically separate from God then there was a point in the mind of God that his will was not to create and that will changed so as to create - in fact thinking presupposes change. The only reason any creature acts in the first place is because they are dissatisfied with the present circumstances they find themselves in otherwise they would not act to affect those circumstances and change them. Now if God's will was always to create the universe then the universe would have been created an eternity ago since that will is eternal and would have been acted upon from eternity past. So what changed in the mind of God that at one point he did not want to create and at another he did so as to render the universe non-eternal?

See God does change.

No...his nature was still the same. He acted in different ways.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Actually...no. He doesn't change. He still required a sacrifice. That's what Jesus did -- he sacrificed himself.

Don't confuse God with churches.


No....what was wrong in 1960 (adultery, fornication, homosexuality, murder, theft, rape) was wrong then, and it's still wrong.

*chuckle* No one cares about actions that are supposedly "immoral" but have no real consequences. Fornication, for instance, is just a primitive religious decree and has little to do with true morality. Religious morality is just a lot of nonsense. Things that are immoral and which should be avoided for the expressed purpose of not wanting to tick off God are useless and often flagrantly stupid to the non-believer. Do I think fornication is wrong? No ... I don't. And neither do MOST people, Christian or not.

I love how Christians always manage to slip homosexuality into these short lists of sins. No matter what, being gay always makes the list even if there are only two items on it. I've seen plenty of these short lists where rape isn't included and even more lists where pedophilia isn't mentioned (like yours, Vizio) but homosexuality (LOL!) is right there - and it was thought of BEFORE murder, theft and rape going by the order in which you wrote the list. Funny how the three big sex infractions made the list before the violent, physical crimes.

But is homosexuality wrong? Only if you're a Christian and like to cherry pick out of the Old Testament. This is a fine example of one of those arbitrary and stupid religious laws that most people have tossed into the Trash Can of Life. There are REAL problems in this world.

And an overwhelming majority of people support marriage equality. Sorry. (Well, actually I'm not). This is such a wonderful example of morality changing right before your eyes. You know, that objective morality from God that never ever changes?

Originally Posted by Vizio

No...his nature was still the same. He acted in different ways.

So now your are changing the question Typical tactics by you Vizio. So if his will can change then maybe his will regarding what he values as a moral can change. Are you equating his nature with his will or his moral values? Which moral values correspond to his nature or will? And how do you know this?

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Vizio

No....what was wrong in 1960 (adultery, fornication, homosexuality, murder, theft, rape) was wrong then, and it's still wrong.

Morality encompasses many things. It includes things such as your list quoted above upon which there is relatively wide agreement across humanity both currently and in the past (such that all those listed mores, except fornication, are still regarded substantially the same now as they were a half century ago, almost regardless of religious persuasion).

It also includes things like the morality of going to the movie theatre, dancing, the circumstances, if any, in which divorce is permissible, and what constitutes a moral hemline on a woman's dress -- upon which there is and has been far less agreement, and upon which the consensus has shifted markedly -- even in the church -- which, no, I am not confusing with god. In any event, God hasn't anything to say, apparently, about movies or hemlines, and he seems rather favorably disposed toward dancing as a form of personal expression.

Currently in some parts of the Muslim world, getting an education is punishable by death, and recently, several hapless young Iranians narrowly missed serious jail time for the horrible sin of shooting a music video with their cell phones of Farrell's Happy. I'm sure they regard these things as a very important moral issue, and that they are obeying direct commands from god on the matter. Can you explain to me why the things you claim to be very important moral issues because god says so, have any more standing than that? Or than me, if I were to claim that god had appeared to me and said that having live plants in your house is an abomination to him? Or that eating eggs on Tuesdays is malignantly evil?

ALL morality is ALL relative and subjective and it is ALL based on consensus, even when it is claimed to be obedience to edicts from on high. Such claims are nothing more than a way to try to get more consensus based on fear and superstition -- a tactic that worked much better in the past than it does today, but still holds some sway in pockets of fundamentalism.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by travric

Yes I'd say a bit. But nowhere near the dissertations in theology and religion. When science does get increasingly involved in the 'moral sphere' it will simply be going under its 'materialist' approach due to its nature of investigation. I am sure 'moral' scientists (is that what we'll call them???) will want to go for 'laws' when it comes for the origins and practice of morality in humanity and its populations. Are there any? I don't know. Maybe we'll find it from the 'secular' perspective. Personally, I'll be very interested in what 'results' come out of the experimentation which will certainly be put under er... a microscope by many areas of intellectual pursuit that strive for 'truths' of our existence..

How does science get involved with the moral sphere?

The scientific method is completely agnostic as to the results, it just reports them. What is done with those reports may be political, social or otherwise, but that is not the reasons the science is done.

Please understand what science is and isn't.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Do you think God changes? Is he a man that he might change as the wind blows?

Of course god changes. Let's see, we have had Mazda, Ra, Thor, Hercules, Yahweh, Chaac, and a plethora of others.

Yup, gods change all the time.