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I'll say one thing for you guys...you're persistent. Despite people admitting to no form of objective morality, and no way to judge anyone other than personal opinion, this thread has gone on for 127 pages with people claiming God is immoral, and that you can judge him to be so.
I don't see the problem here. You've admitted that there's a way to judge the morality of actions, and people are doing so. That you disagree with their judgement on the morality of those actions is just more evidence of the subjective nature of morality.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
That's because my goal on this thread is not to provide answers as much as it is to expose the massively gaping holes in the atheist position on morality. It's very telling that rather than actually engage the debate, you have now run out of answers and instead just do ad hominems and strawman arguments.
Yet you can't or won't define your position.
Many use a construct similar to the one I so often have written. In case you forgot:
Yes, I have decreed God to be immoral. In fact, perhaps THE most immoral entity to have ever existed in either fact OR fiction.
We've been over this. Every human being on earth has an opinion of what is good and bad. There is no reason your opinion is better than anyone else's.
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And if any ONE of those nasty things God did had been committed by an ordinary human, YOU would find the act to be immoral, as well.
Why? What tells you those things are nasty? Or immoral? Your opinion again? Too bad. It's just an opinion.
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Uh huh, it's time to pay the piper, so to speak, and dispense with the crap. I don't think you're a bad or evil person, Vizio, which is why I am 99.999999999% certain that few, if any, of the things God did in the Old Testament would be considered moral in your eyes - IF a regular person committed them.
And you KNOW that it is the ACT that is inherently immoral. In other words, genocide is inherently evil. It isn't judged good or bad based on the person (or God) committing it. I'm willing to bet just about anything that when you read the OT for the first time, what God did shocked you. It sent an almost electrical jolt of revulsion though the very core of your being - because YOU intuitively know the difference between right and wrong.
Is it? What tells you that? Your opinion? What it comes down to is that you don't LIKE it that God judged people and killed them.
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It was only after the fact - after you were able to process that "holy damn" moment that wracked your morality as you read about bears ripping apart 42 kids or the Israelites being commanded to commit wholesale slaughter at the behest of your supposedly infinitely loving and impeccably fair God. It was only AFTER swallowing the bile I'm sure rose in your throat as you read those passages that you were able to begin the rationalization process - a sort of self-brainwashing - which finally allowed you to sit on this forum and defend a "might makes right" moral system with an almost terrifying amount of certitude.
Is it? What tells you that? Your opinion? What it comes down to is that you don't LIKE it that God judged people and killed them.
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Yet behind your faith, lurking beneath the years of indoctrination, the years of rationalizations, the years of swimming in dogma, your morality is STILL screaming, "Double-you, Tee, Efff" at the horrors you read about in that holy book of yours. I know this because you are a human being - and unless you're some kind of sociopath or a complete "Christian Taliban" sort of fanatic, there is no WAY you could walk away from God's flagrant immorality without feeling a sense of bitter disappointment. Wow, what a let-down that God went on a violent rampage instead of demonstrating love, kindness, compassion, and forgiveness. How many people did God heal as opposed to kill? Yeah ... big problem there, a problem that requires massive cognitive dissonance to absorb without recoiling away from this barbaric concept of Yahweh.
So you go right on defending God, espousing "might makes right," and the idea that God can be as immoral as he wishes because he's God. Sure ... keep on keeping on if that's how you REALLY feel. But I'm pretty certain that your humanity is flailing and screaming, tugging at the bars of your faith wanting to be let out of its Bible-shaped cage.
I'm still waiting for you to give me an actual, logical, thought-out answer where you are not begging the question. What makes you able to decide that those things are immoral? You're assuming that they are, but you've never explained how your OPINION is superior to anyone else's.
Many use a construct similar to the one I so often have written. In case you forgot:
Same response to you and your "if it feels good" morality. What makes it "correct"? Besides your opinion? What makes your opinion better than anyone else's?
I don't see the problem here. You've admitted that there's a way to judge the morality of actions, and people are doing so. That you disagree with their judgement on the morality of those actions is just more evidence of the subjective nature of morality.
I want to understand what gives anyone the right to say their opinion of subjective morality is above anyone else's. Can you do explain that?
I explained why the term subjective morality is not a proper term, if it keeps appearing that's okay but now new posts come about.
Moral or morality would be an absolute, a condition or state which does not need to be relative as an identifiable value subject to opinion. What your asking concerns a matter of-measure of moral principals.
Its a measure because, it is and can only be relative subjectively by way of opinion. ( as worded above.
So do you believe you can judge someone or something to be "moral"? What is your judgment based on?
We've been over this. Every human being on earth has an opinion of what is good and bad. There is no reason your opinion is better than anyone else's.
Why? What tells you those things are nasty? Or immoral? Your opinion again? Too bad. It's just an opinion.
Is it? What tells you that? Your opinion? What it comes down to is that you don't LIKE it that God judged people and killed them.
Is it? What tells you that? Your opinion? What it comes down to is that you don't LIKE it that God judged people and killed them.
I'm still waiting for you to give me an actual, logical, thought-out answer where you are not begging the question. What makes you able to decide that those things are immoral? You're assuming that they are, but you've never explained how your OPINION is superior to anyone else's.
You seem oblivious to the fact that you are admitting to an absolute ignorance and lack of ability to make moral judgments with this asinine campaign of belaboring the obvious. If you have no internal moral compass . . . which is what you are admitting to repeatedly . . . why are you badgering others here who DO have an internal moral compass. Do you ACTUALLY think your lack of a moral compass is an admirable characteristic????? Agape loving human beings emulating Christ following what God has "written in our hearts" have no difficulty at all judging morality. Yet here you are a Pastor admitting that you can NOT do so. You need an ancient book and the whims of a capricious War God recorded in words "written in ink" as your gauge of morality.
You need an ancient book and the whims of a capricious War God recorded in words "written in ink" as your gauge of morality.
Please just stop it. Seriously. I'm almost ready to hit the ignore button on you because of you non-stop misrepresenting me. It's almost laughable. I've never said we have to follow the Law of Moses to be declared moral. Or that we even have to have the Bible to know morality.
Honestly...for a guy that claims to be all about agape love and knowing morality, you are really good at speaking falsely about others.
So do you believe you can judge someone or something to be "moral"? What is your judgment based on?
Above are two different questions,
1) A moral stance is relative to an individual's opinion re right and wrong on a particular matter.
It expresses an opinion from a position of understanding relative to whatever situation.
2)Assessing independent of a position of understanding, an act or intent to be either right or wrong is very simple, it is either connected and leads to charity or it does not. All virtue is connected to charity, but it does not assume to judge the individual because it would necessarily suggest knowing exactly the above mentioned position of understanding, which is impossible.
Last edited by Sophronius; 09-30-2014 at 10:51 AM..
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