Christian morality: an atheist's point of view (pagan, examples, mass)
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Since neither the OP, nor you, have any way to declare what is moral or immoral....it's not relevant. Your opinion of what God does is pointless. All you've got is your own opinion.
....as do you, as do I. Morals are opinions, judgments, tastes, etc.. Morality is resolved through consensus of opinion.
Of course we can. We are capable of reason and can evaluate situations based on their impact on the purpose for our existence. Some things are obvious . . . like destroying human life is immoral because it is destructive to whatever our purpose for existing is. Sam Harris presents a way to employ the scientific method to assess situations based on their impact on human well-being. We are not devoid of ways to ascertain what is moral and immoral and some things are already universally agreed upon as immoral. Your pretense that there is some perfect set of objective moral codes written by God and handed down to men is moot because your God violates them at will. That is neither objective nor absolute.
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Originally Posted by Shirina
I already know what my "opinion" is.
What is YOUR opinion? Do you think genocide and killing kids is immoral? Or are you going to make an exception to objective morality because God did it?
And if you personally believe genocide is wrong but give God a pass, then morality isn't really objective, now, is it.
Otherwise, you would have to admit that genocide and murdering kids isn't wrong - which should make anyone cringe at the idea of morality corrupted by desperate attempts to rationalize why depraved atrocity is a-okay under certain circumstances.
Anyone with any kind of moral framework would be asking that question - and seriously doubting whether the story is even true given the barbarity and brutality of the event. Anyone who can sit there with a straight face and claim that God is the paragon of goodness and morality while simultaneously excusing God for ordering the wholesale slaughter of every living thing living inside the walls of a city should be spending time doing some serious introspection.
I know where you're going with this, and what God did was NOT capital punishment. It was slaughter. It was brutality on a scale only an evil god could carry out. I think you and I both know that there were innocents that were killed - and if you REALLY believe that 100% of humanity was engaged in 24/7 wickedness as the Bible portends, then I have some beachfront property in Kansas I'd like to sell you. Cheap. And I'll even throw in a free Bible. Because you have to be grade-A gullible to believe that even the infants were goo-gooing their wicked little hearts out. Even the kittens and puppies were, I dunno, worshiping demons and fornicating and refusing to put tassels on their cloaks. Who the hell really knows?
The bottom line is pretty simple. Christians claim their God is utterly good, the source of love, the source of morality - a God who is both perfect and omnipotent. Yet if he is all of those things, then there is absolutely no excuse for resorting to brutality and barbarism. If you want God to be seen as good and loving, genocide and child-killing, virgin-snatching, bashing infants against poles, billions of cases of animal abuse, blood sacrifices, mind games with Isaac, sending bears to murder kids ... seriously, those things are not the way to do it. Christians are asking people to believe that night is day and day is night. You would have us believe that your God is one thing but behaves as though he's just the opposite.
Capital punishment is a human punishment because we just don't know any other way to deal with some of the more heinous criminals. But an omnipotent God? No ... a being with infinite options doesn't need to act like Stalin with superpowers. If that's really the best he could do to solve the problems he faced, then why would I want to worship him?
You cannot make the case any clearer, Shirina. A morality based on the caprice of God (whatever God does or says is moral . . . but do as He says NOT as He does) is preposterous! Morality cannot be capricious. It either exists or it doesn't and it is absolute.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
For ME to do it, yes. Those nations and people were not accountable to me for their sin.
Man-made morality is certainly subjective. That's why what you think is irrelevant in a discussion about God. But God made us, he can do with us what he wants. He gets to define morality. What you fail to realize is that there is the authority of God.
At least in your opinion. But we know what your opinion is worth. It's not worth any more than anyone else's.
At this point, further discussion really isn't very helpful. It doesn't matter what I say--you've made up your mind.
Your self-contradictory morality is anathema to God and humans. It makes a mockery of God's character and love. God cannot do whatever He wants with us. That is caprice and unworthy of worship. Do as I say not as I do is a preposterous lack of objective and absolute morality. Might does NOT make right. It just makes might. Our God is NOT like a capricious human with absolute power corrupting absolutely. Our God IS agape love for life, period.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Originally Posted by cupper3
So, you don't concur with my "opinion" that soldiers killing everyone, men, women, children, except for virgins that they get to keep for themselves is immoral?
Really, Vizio? REALLY? You can justify this because your god ordered it?
How? Please try and answer.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
It sounds like you're suggesting that killing the women would be better.
I see. Your god said it was OK, so that is what you teach your parishioners. Some morality that is. Killing babies, OK, keep virgins for your own pleasure, also OK.
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You can condemn it? How so? Because you think it is? Yay.
Once again, Vizio the pastor, shows us how seminary school teaches to answer questions. You don't. You just ask your own to try and deflect.
Vizio, do you truly believe there is something in your faith which substantiates the beating of another human being, even if they didn't know they did something wrong. That IS what Jesus taught.
In Luke:*
12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Do you not understand this passage?
It is talking about those who know the word of God but are rebellious The punishment is Justice. And more severe.
For those who have not heard the word of God. Their punishment for the same crime will be less. This is just because they did not Know the law of the heart.
It sounds like you're suggesting that killing the women would be better.
You can condemn it? How so? Because you think it is? Yay.
Word of advice.
They are just luring you into an argument.
Their hearts are bitter and their fruit is sour.
All they want to do is bring you down with them.
Do you not understand this passage?
It is talking about those who know the word of God but are rebellious The punishment is Justice. And more severe.
For those who have not heard the word of God. Their punishment for the same crime will be less. This is just because they did not Know the law of the heart.
I can not understand anyone who claims to get their morality from a god they worship endorse the genocide of a neighboring tribe, whose land your tribe was trying to invade, to go back and kill all men, women and children you did not get in the first go around, and then keep all virgins for your tribe's men for their own pleasure.
And frankly, if you do endorse that, you better look in the mirror and ask yourself how moral can your thought be.
Even Hitler, who you frequently bring up, did not systematically keep the virgins for his troops to enjoy. Your god's command to do that horrible, horrible thing is worse than the excesses of crimes committed under the Nazis. Far, far worse.
I can't understand why atheists are so passionately defensive of a race of humans that regularly sacrificed their own babies in fires to their pagan gods. People who were such scum that they would attack from behind to kill the weak and elderly. Evil of that magnitude should be wiped out, but they are the good guys in your world?
And there is nothing in the passage that says virgins were kept as sex slaves.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I can't understand why atheists are so passionately defensive of a race of humans that regularly sacrificed their own babies in fires to their pagan gods. People who were such scum that they would attack from behind to kill the weak and elderly. Evil of that magnitude should be wiped out, but they are the good guys in your world?
And there is nothing in the passage that says virgins were kept as sex slaves.
Jeffbase40, I swear you make things up.
Where does it even suggest in the bible (and there is NO other history which does suggest it) that the Midianites practiced human sacrifice? Where?
BTW, I can tell you what the biblical perspective is, but I think it is time you actually did a little home work and bible study before this atheist, once again, shows you what the bible really said.
Now go do that homework and come back and tell us the real reason Moses ordered the attack on the Midianites, which had nothing to do with human sacrifice.
Where does it even suggest in the bible (and there is NO other history which does suggest it) that the Midianites practiced human sacrifice? Where?
BTW, I can tell you what the biblical perspective is, but I think it is time you actually did a little home work and bible study before this atheist, once again, shows you what the bible really said.
Now go do that homework and come back and tell us the real reason Moses ordered the attack on the Midianites, which had nothing to do with human sacrifice.
Fundies! Geeez!
I don't think he's making this up. This is a common excuse in Christian circles for justifying the Bible God's ordering of their genocide. Likely he heard it from one of his preachers, like Visio. I suspect Visio believes the same thing.
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