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Is religion just a cover for political agendas? I can't help but wonder.
In the first century Roman Empire, there was absolutely no difference between religion and politics. So Jesus was basically a political figure. The Romans turned Jesus into a popular pagan god.
And I think it is still true today. People's view of God is based on their political view.
It's why REAL Christianity is founded in social justice. We don't have REAL christianity in this nation because it has become an oligarchy--where resources, money, and power continues to amalgamate into the hands of a few---the very thing God warned His nation about.
Christianity is over 2000 years old. And yet there was very little social justice associated with it for those 2000 years. Instead, Christianity gave us the dark ages, the crusades, opposition to science (that continues to this day), several wars of religion, the Salem witch trials, and on and on. What are you suggesting? That none of that was "real" Christianity?
Christianity is over 2000 years old. And yet there was very little social justice associated with it for those 2000 years. Instead, Christianity gave us the dark ages, the crusades, opposition to science (that continues to this day), several wars of religion, the Salem witch trials, and on and on. What are you suggesting? That none of that was "real" Christianity?
The message of God in Leviticus 27 was JUSTICE. The message of Jesus was the same. However, it's been the likes of men who are still comprised of the same Pharisees that plagued Jesus that have corrupted the primary and original faith message of loving one's neighbor and doing all one can to bring about a leveling of the playing field among men.
The Pharisees didn't like what Jesus said either. He called them whited sepulchres.
Freak, the fact that men ignore the basic message of scripture for justice and use scripture to practice injustice in no way lessens the importance of the message. If Jesus could call the most profound leaders of Judaism "vipers," for how they tried to use scripture for their own purposes, why should we do any less?
In the first century Roman Empire, there was absolutely no difference between religion and politics. So Jesus was basically a political figure. The Romans turned Jesus into a popular pagan god.
And I think it is still true today. People's view of God is based on their political view.
An interesting thought. However my religion CHANGED my political viewpoints. Now the question for me is, how can one claim to be a christian and NOT support a social gospel.
The message of God in Leviticus 27 was JUSTICE. The message of Jesus was the same. However, it's been the likes of men who are still comprised of the same Pharisees that plagued Jesus that have corrupted the primary and original faith message of loving one's neighbor and doing all one can to bring about a leveling of the playing field among men.
You're quoting Leviticus? The same book that conservative Christians use against homosexuality? The same book that says we should stone disobedient children? Aren't you just cherry picking Leviticus just like the conservative Christians?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
The Pharisees didn't like what Jesus said either. He called them whited sepulchres.
Yes, I am well aware of that. The Pharasees consistently played the role of the "bad guys" in my Sunday School lessons and in church. In the conservative Christian world they were "bad" because they didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah/God. In the liberal Christian world they were "bad" because they were the privileged class and the keepers of the Status Quo. It just goes to show that one can get anything from the bible in order to support a given theo-political agenda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
Freak, the fact that men ignore the basic message of scripture for justice and use scripture to practice injustice in no way lessens the importance of the message. If Jesus could call the most profound leaders of Judaism "vipers," for how they tried to use scripture for their own purposes, why should we do any less?
Again, the "basic message of scripture" is different depending on how scripture is interpreted. Conservative Christians believe that YOU are using scripture for your own purposes. Naturally, you think that YOUR interpretation is the correct one and that THEY are using scripture for their own purposes.
You're quoting Leviticus? The same book that conservative Christians use against homosexuality? The same book that says we should stone disobedient children? Aren't you just cherry picking Leviticus just like the conservative Christians?
Absolutely quoting from Leviticus with that very point in mind. The difference is quite clear. When it comes to INDIVIDUALS, Jesus Himself had no problem contradicting God. In Deuteronomy 19:21 it is God Himself (according to the writer) who says: "Thus you shall not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."
But Jesus said:
You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.…
Matt 5:38-39
Jesus changed the message of the Father.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80
Yes, I am well aware of that. The Pharasees consistently played the role of the "bad guys" in my Sunday School lessons and in church. In the conservative Christian world they were "bad" because they didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah/God. In the liberal Christian world they were "bad" because they were the privileged class and the keepers of the Status Quo. It just goes to show that one can get anything from the bible in order to support a given theo-political agenda.
Ignacio Ellacurla, S.J., the seminary president murdered (in 1989) for the praxis of believing that one must start from a correct principle of reason or faith by walking as a disciple of Christ and actively seeking to bring about the reign of God spoke to Christians in dramatic words:
"I want you to set your eyes and your hearts on on these people who are suffering so much----some from poverty and hunger, others from oppression and repression. Then (since I am a Jesuit), standing this people thus crucified you must repeat you must repeat St. Ignatius' examination from the first week of the Spiritual Exercises. Ask yourselves: what have I done to crucify them? What do I do to uncrucify them? What must I do for this people to rise again?"
(quoted from Quest for the Living God, Dr. Elizabeth Johnson, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2007, p. 84)
Sounds a lot like the current Pope!!! I predicted early on that he will die violently rather than peacefully in bed. Such is the message of truth so hated by the greedy manipulators even within the Church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80
Again, the "basic message of scripture" is different depending on how scripture is interpreted. Conservative Christians believe that YOU are using scripture for your own purposes. Naturally, you think that YOUR interpretation is the correct one and that THEY are using scripture for their own purposes.
Do you see how this works?
Of course it works that way. It worked the same way when Jesus walked this earth. Pharisees interpreted scripture in a way that was personally beneficial.
But how is interpreting scripture for the benefit of OTHERS self-serving? I don't have much, but I'm certainly not in the crowd that struggles from week to week to put food on the table in order for some fat cat executive in a large corporation to get a $25 million bonus check.
Look, I get it that you were hurt by the practice of religion in your family. I was, too, to a lesser extent and spent most of my adult years in battle with my father over his judgmental attitude towards others. But because something (christianity) has been used for evil is no reason to fail to use it for good.
As a post script here is a quote from wikipedia concerning Ignacio Ellacurla:
The political implications of EllacurÃa's commitment to his ideas met strong opposition from the conservative religious and political forces in El Salvador. This opposition led to EllacurÃa's murder by the Salvadoran army in 1989 at his residence in UCA along with five other fellow Jesuit priests and two employees. Their murder marked a turning point in the Salvadoran civil war (see History of El Salvador). On the one hand it increased international pressures on the Salvadoran government to sign peace agreements with the guerrilla organisation FMLN On the other, it helped make EllacurÃa's ideas (until then known only in Latin America and Spain) become known worldwide.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 05-24-2015 at 10:28 AM..
Absolutely quoting from Leviticus with that very point in mind. The difference is quite clear. When it comes to INDIVIDUALS, Jesus Himself had no problem contradicting God. In Deuteronomy 19:21 it is God Himself (according to the writer) who says: "Thus you shall not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."
But Jesus said:
You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.…
Matt 5:38-39
Jesus changed the message of the Father
No, He really didn't.
You should not take one verse out of context, and try to make it say something it does not say.
Anyone can read Deuteronomy 19 and see what it is talking about.
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