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There we go, another condition to add to that category along with not believing the virgin birth as those that embrace the Anti_christ...
Promote much Jew hatred lately???...So, what makes you say this?...
Just compare the description of JewFaq to the words of Jesus, they are describing
the same thing, and that is a messiah who will be honored by this world, but not
in heaven. I am not saying that Jews intend for their Messiah to be the Antichrist,
and in threads other I have said "some" Jews and many of all peoples will follow him.
What I say is not "Jew hatred" any more or less than your posts are
"Christian hatred", we're just having a discussion, albeit among various threads.
The Church put to rest what we call the Pelagian heresy 1,600 years ago. It wasn't
the Council of Carthage or Synods which created anything, all they did was affirm
the original teaching against heresies such as Pelagianism.
I do suspect that many "Jews" before the time of Christ did believe in Original Sin
also; as Saul/Paul the Pharisee states in Romans, that through one man sin entered
the world, and death; although man is not the origin of sin, but only a partaker in
it from Satan.
For example, the Book of Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon) states: Wisdom 2:24, "By the envy of the devil, death entered into the world.", and Yah's
curses certainly include death. So, we can be certain that some Hebrews believed
Adam and Eve's participation in sin did cause death.
Just compare the description of JewFaq to the words of Jesus, they are describing
the same thing, and that is a messiah who will be honored by this world, but not
in heaven.
They are not the same thing...You really don't think these things through, do you?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
I am not saying that Jews intend for their Messiah to be the Antichrist,
and in threads other I have said "some" Jews and many of all peoples will follow him.
What I say is not "Jew hatred" any more or less than your posts are
"Christian hatred", we're just having a discussion, albeit among various threads.
You said that the Moshiach that the Jews are waiting for is the Anti-Christ...Or the Anti-Moshiach...
Did it ever occur to you that the reason that the book of Revelation was written is to destroy Judaism and the Jews?...The TNK has been around a lot longer than Christianity or the New Testament, and it was G-d, through the prophets, that told the Jews what to expect in the Moshiach...And all of a sudden a letter is written by this John of Patmos giving a detailed description of the Anti-Christ, which coincidence, matches the Jewish Moshiach, the one that G-d gave them explicit details to look out for...Seems a little fishy to me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
The Church put to rest what we call the Pelagian heresy 1,600 years ago. It wasn't
the Council of Carthage or Synods which created anything, all they did was affirm
the original teaching against heresies such as Pelagianism.
Do you even know what Pelegianism is?...Have you ever heard of Arminianism?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
I do suspect that many "Jews" before the time of Christ did believe in Original Sin
also; as Saul/Paul the Pharisee states in Romans, that through one man sin entered
the world, and death; although man is not the origin of sin, but only a partaker in
it from Satan.
You suspect, so you do not know?...Why don't you do some research on it and find out for sure?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
For example, the Book of Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon) states: Wisdom 2:24, "By the envy of the devil, death entered into the world.", and Yah's
curses certainly include death. So, we can be certain that some Hebrews believed
Adam and Eve's participation in sin did cause death.
Wisdom is in the Catholic bible...No one knows who wrote it...So, quoting from it does no good...and has nothing to do with the Messiah...
Just compare the description of JewFaq to the words of Jesus, they are describing
the same thing, and that is a messiah who will be honored by this world, but not
in heaven. I am not saying that Jews intend for their Messiah to be the Antichrist,
and in threads other I have said "some" Jews and many of all peoples will follow him.
What I say is not "Jew hatred" any more or less than your posts are
"Christian hatred", we're just having a discussion, albeit among various threads.
The Church put to rest what we call the Pelagian heresy 1,600 years ago. It wasn't
the Council of Carthage or Synods which created anything, all they did was affirm
the original teaching against heresies such as Pelagianism.
I do suspect that many "Jews" before the time of Christ did believe in Original Sin
also; as Saul/Paul the Pharisee states in Romans, that through one man sin entered
the world, and death; although man is not the origin of sin, but only a partaker in
it from Satan.
For example, the Book of Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon) states: Wisdom 2:24, "By the envy of the devil, death entered into the world.", and Yah's
curses certainly include death. So, we can be certain that some Hebrews believed
Adam and Eve's participation in sin did cause death.
The Antichrist is primarily a Christian concept based on interpretation of passages in the New Testament, in which the term "antichrist" occurs five times in 1 John and 2 John, once in plural form and four times in the singular.
Rotagivan (or Navigator) and Richard why don't you take your disputes over HOW you each post and the relationship to TOS and copyright to a DM and let the actual topics be discussed in each of the threads you confront each other in.
Rotagivan (or Navigator) and Richard why don't you take your disputes over HOW you each post and the relationship to TOS and copyright to a DM and let the actual topics be discussed in each of the threads you confront each other in.
Sorry folks. Not meaning to disrupt. Please forgive me. Have deleted my posts.
Rotagivan (or Navigator) and Richard why don't you take your disputes over HOW you each post and the relationship to TOS and copyright to a DM and let the actual topics be discussed in each of the threads you confront each other in.
I really don't care to discuss this with him any farther...However, I see your point...
Wisdom is in the Catholic bible...No one knows who wrote it...So, quoting from it does no good...and has nothing to do with the Messiah...
Wisdom is in the Septuagint and was written by a Jew before Christ was born.
My point is that Israelites and Hebrews believed in Original Sin before Christ,
regardless of the fact that modern Jewry and some sects of Christianity reject it.
Psalm 51:5
Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.
God told Adam he would die if he partook of the Devil's temptation for the forbidden,
and the curses of God for doing so are generational curses, not just for Adam.
The only reason why post-Christian Jews reject original sin is that they don't want to need a
Savior. Hence, their sins will not be forgiven by the Father, and their atonements are
rejected.
Common sense dictates that we are born into sin and are of a sinful nature, which
cannot be rejected. Refusal to acknowledge the sinful nature of mankind, and the
fallen state of nature, and the heinous disobedience of that first Sin as described in Genesis
is a ploy of the Devil - and rabbis should be ashamed to teach that it was not evil.
Wisdom is in the Septuagint and was written by a Jew before Christ was born.
My point is that Israelites and Hebrews believed in Original Sin before Christ,
regardless of the fact that modern Jewry and some sects of Christianity reject it.
Psalm 51:5
Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.
Psalms 51 has nothing to do with original sin...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
God told Adam he would die if he partook of the Devil's temptation for the forbidden,
and the curses of God for doing so are generational curses, not just for Adam.
The Devil did not tempt Adam...And prove your theory about the generational curse...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
The only reason why post-Christian Jews reject original sin is that they don't want to need a
Savior. Hence, their sins will not be forgiven by the Father, and their atonements are
rejected.
No, original sin was formulated by Augustine of Hippo, it was never a core doctrine of either Judaism or Christianity until he came up with it...
And it is funny that G-d promises that if they turn from their sins G-d will forgive them and heal them, so what you are stating is G-d is a liar...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
Common sense dictates that we are born into sin and are of a sinful nature, which
cannot be rejected.
Common sense doesn't tell you that, man made doctrine tells you that...
These guys told you that...
The concept of original sin was first alluded to in the 2nd century by Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons in his controversy with certain dualist Gnostics. Other church fathers such as Augustine also developed the doctrine, seeing it as based on the New Testament teaching of Paul the Apostle (Romans 5:12–21 and 1 Corinthians 15:22) and the Old Testament verse of Psalm 51:5.
Here's how the Psalms 51:7 in the Hebrew Bible (The TaNaKh) is:
7Behold, with iniquity I was formed, and with sin my mother conceived me.
Rashi's Commentary:
Behold, with iniquity I was formed: Now how could I not sin when the main part of my creation was through coitus, the source of many iniquities? Another explanation: The main part of my creation is from a male and a female, both of whom are full of iniquity. There are many midrashim to this verse, but they do not fit the context of the psalm.
conceived me: Heb. יחמתני, an expression of heat, as (Gen. 30:38): “And they came into heat (ויחמנה) when they came to drink.”
Notice it say WITH iniquity I was formed, and WITH sin my mother conceived me...He was not born into sin, all he is stating is that it is because of his mother that he sins, not that it is automatically inherited, but he is blaming the action of his parents for his sinning...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
Refusal to acknowledge the sinful nature of mankind, and the
fallen state of nature, and the heinous disobedience of that first Sin as described in Genesis
is a ploy of the Devil - and rabbis should be ashamed to teach that it was not evil.
Well, actually the tree of good and evil is the tree of good and bad...Someone translated it evil in order to give it a more sinister sound...When Adam ate the apple he became aware of the difference between good and bad...In other words, he knew better now...The reason G-d put them out of Gan Eden is to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and becoming immortal and that is the reason that they were ejected from Gan Eden, not because they ate from the tree of knowledge...
As for the first sin...It wasn't in Gan Eden...Do you know where it was and by who?...
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