Who finds the concept of "Original Sin" unjust and immoral? (salvation, Buddhism)
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When I was old enough to understand the concept of "eating from the tree of knowledge" and the ides of "original sin" in my very early teens, it struck me as wrong. Both morally wrong to hold someone as a sinner from before they were born, and also, well, insulting to believe that becoming a knowledgeable, intelligent human being was sinful. An author worded this far better than I ever will:
I'd like to know other's opinions. I rejected this concept when I was about 12.
ME - me - me - me - me - me.
It was one the first thing I remember in rejecting the traits assigned to god. I mean it was like 3rd grade or something and I remember thinking, "no way original sin ... he made us."
And when they asked "but why would he have died?" I thought to myself "what are you crazy?"
God created Adam and Eve and the serpent with full and certain foreknowledge of what they would be, and what would inevitably occur. Next, He brought both sides together in the Garden, and allowed the inevitable to occur. Then He condemned all sides AND THEIR PROGENY in perpetuity for doing what they were created to be and do. What's so unjust about that?
You forget Act II - now that we all think we're evil, we give money and power to the folks who convinced us we were evil.
I rejected the derived doctrine of original sin when I realized that Genesis was not history, but creation myth and that the "loss of innocence" of Adam and Eve was about growing up and realizing that selfish desires must often be subjugated to the good of the community, and that the ultimate good of the individual depends on a healthy community.
You forget Act II - now that we all think we're evil, we give money and power to the folks who convinced us we were evil.
The longest-running scam in history...
No, WE don't.
I find it silly that a creator would inflict man with original sin, and hold that against someone that through their own actions has lived an honest productive life. Yet the worst sinner, most vile sinner and murderer is forgiven all his acts and gets an express ride to heaven if he says "sorry" right before he dies. I'll take justice and morality over religious superstition any time.
You forget Act II - now that we all think we're evil, we give money and power to the folks who convinced us we were evil.
The longest-running scam in history...
It literally is the longest running scam in history. Far older than Judeo-Christianity. We know that ancient prehistoric people had religious beliefs. The role of witch doctor/shaman/priesthood has been around probably nearly as long as modern humans have been around, if not longer. These individuals were generally feared and highly respected in tribal hierarchy, as well as men of wealth in power in the early civilizations, where they typically served as advisers to the king. The problem was, they were generally expected to foretell important things, like the fortunes of upcoming battles, and the general coming of disasters. Since such people are little more than con artists using slight of hand tricks to fool everyone, (think Peter Popoff here) they had no better than a 50/50 chance of predicting anything right. And when they got it wrong they generally paid with their lives.
The priests of Judaism however figured a way around this problem. They produced a series of documents, known as the Torah, which they claimed to be from God Himself, which placed duties and restrictions on the Jewish population. Lots and lots of duties and restrictions on the Jewish population. So many duties and restrictions on the Jewish population that it was impossible for all of the people to to keep all of the duties and restrictions all of the time. So when disasters struck, which of course they inevitably would, the priests could claim that they were not at fault, but the people had angered God by falling to uniformly follow all of the rules all of the time. And so the priests were able to reap the rewards of their position without suffering the risks.
The rewards for the Jewish priests, the Levites, were extraordinarily lucrative too. For example:
Num.18
[20] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
[21] And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Num.31:
1. And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.
2. Even of the children of Israel's half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD; as the LORD commanded Moses.
The Levites have no inheritance of lands to work but are instead given a portion of the wealth and cities to reside in:
Num.35:
1. Command the children of Israel, that they give unto the Levites of the inheritance of their possession cities to dwell in; and ye shall give also unto the Levites suburbs for the cities round about them.
2. And the suburbs of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.
3. And among the cities which ye shall give unto the Levites there shall be six cities for refuge, which ye shall appoint for the manslayer, that he may flee thither: and to them ye shall add forty and two cities.
4. So all the cities which ye shall give to the Levites shall be forty and eight cities: them shall ye give with their suburbs.
5. And the cities which ye shall give shall be of the possession of the children of Israel: from them that have many ye shall give many; but from them that have few ye shall give few: every one shall give of his cities unto the Levites according to his inheritance which he inheriteth.
Leviticus makes it even better for the Levites. Free homes to live in. And if the Levite owners should choose to sell his home to a non Levite, the ownership of the home reverts to the Levite owner again every seven years.
Lev.25
1. Notwithstanding the cities of the Levites, and the houses of the cities of their possession, may the Levites redeem at any time.
2. And if a man purchase of the Levites, then the house that was sold, and the city of his possession, shall go out in the year of jubile: for the houses of the cities of the Levites are their possession among the children of Israel.
Deuteronomy sweetens the deal for the Levites even further.
[i]Deut.12
[16] "Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:
[17] Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee."
Deut.18
[1] "The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.
[2] Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
[3] And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw.
[4] The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him."[/b]
Wow! What a huge break for the Levites! Three times a year you must come to Jerusalem and make your offering to the Lord of the finest things you possess. And once your offering is consecrated it becomes the property of the Levites.
And it only gets better. The duties of the Levites "set them aside" from the general population. They are not required to fight in battle.
"Why did the Levites not share in the apportionment of land of Israel and its plunder, along with their brethren? Because they were set aside to worship the Lord and to minister to Him, and to instruct the masses in His proper ways and just laws, as it is said: “They shall teach Your laws to Jacob and Your instructions to Israel” (Deut. 33:10). Therefore they were set aside from the ways of the world: they do not go to war, as do the rest of Israel, they do not receive an apportionment of land as an inheritance, and they do not obtain things for themselves by the strength of their bodies; rather, they are the Lord’s host (Heb. hayil), as it is said: “Bless, O Lord, his substance (Heb. Barekh hashem helo), [2] and He, Blessed be He, provides for them, as it is said: “I am your portion and your share” (Num. 18:20)." Rabbi Judah Zoldan
One needs to first look at when the concept of "Original Sin" appeared in Christianity.
It first appears to have been theorized by the 2nd century Theologian Irenaeus.
Quote:
Irenaeus and Augustine teach in agreement that Adam sinned and lost his initial endowment of friendship with God, and that all people die as a result of Adam's sin. But whereas Augustine sees God's pristine plans frustrated by original sin, Irenaeus sees the same sin as an almost necessary step for the education of mankind. Irenaeus sees God laying out His plans with original sin already foreseen from the beginning. He would create man free, He foresaw the sin, He then made provisions accordingly. He would help man to use that freedom properly, with original sin as a stepping stone to facilitate the learning process. Christ would come fully prepared to cope with the situation of the fallen race. He would recapitulate the fallen race and lead it to the Father.
It literally is the longest running scam in history. Far older than Judeo-Christianity. We know that ancient prehistoric people had religious beliefs. The role of witch doctor/shaman/priesthood has been around probably nearly as long as modern humans have been around, if not longer. These individuals were generally feared and highly respected in tribal hierarchy, as well as men of wealth in power in the early civilizations, where they typically served as advisers to the king. The problem was, they were generally expected to foretell important things, like the fortunes of upcoming battles, and the general coming of disasters. Since such people are little more than con artists using slight of hand tricks to fool everyone, (think Peter Popoff here) they had no better than a 50/50 chance of predicting anything right. And when they got it wrong they generally paid with their lives.
The priests of Judaism however figured a way around this problem. They produced a series of documents, known as the Torah, which they claimed to be from God Himself, which placed duties and restrictions on the Jewish population. Lots and lots of duties and restrictions on the Jewish population. So many duties and restrictions on the Jewish population that it was impossible for all of the people to to keep all of the duties and restrictions all of the time. So when disasters struck, which of course they inevitably would, the priests could claim that they were not at fault, but the people had angered God by falling to uniformly follow all of the rules all of the time. And so the priests were able to reap the rewards of their position without suffering the risks.
The rewards for the Jewish priests, the Levites, were extraordinarily lucrative too. For example:
Num.18
[20] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
[21] And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Num.31:
1. And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.
2. Even of the children of Israel's half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD; as the LORD commanded Moses.
The Levites have no inheritance of lands to work but are instead given a portion of the wealth and cities to reside in:
Num.35:
1. Command the children of Israel, that they give unto the Levites of the inheritance of their possession cities to dwell in; and ye shall give also unto the Levites suburbs for the cities round about them.
2. And the suburbs of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.
3. And among the cities which ye shall give unto the Levites there shall be six cities for refuge, which ye shall appoint for the manslayer, that he may flee thither: and to them ye shall add forty and two cities.
4. So all the cities which ye shall give to the Levites shall be forty and eight cities: them shall ye give with their suburbs.
5. And the cities which ye shall give shall be of the possession of the children of Israel: from them that have many ye shall give many; but from them that have few ye shall give few: every one shall give of his cities unto the Levites according to his inheritance which he inheriteth.
Leviticus makes it even better for the Levites. Free homes to live in. And if the Levite owners should choose to sell his home to a non Levite, the ownership of the home reverts to the Levite owner again every seven years.
Lev.25
1. Notwithstanding the cities of the Levites, and the houses of the cities of their possession, may the Levites redeem at any time.
2. And if a man purchase of the Levites, then the house that was sold, and the city of his possession, shall go out in the year of jubile: for the houses of the cities of the Levites are their possession among the children of Israel.
Deuteronomy sweetens the deal for the Levites even further.
[i]Deut.12
[16] "Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:
[17] Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee."
Deut.18
[1] "The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.
[2] Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
[3] And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw.
[4] The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him."[/b]
Wow! What a huge break for the Levites! Three times a year you must come to Jerusalem and make your offering to the Lord of the finest things you possess. And once your offering is consecrated it becomes the property of the Levites.
And it only gets better. The duties of the Levites "set them aside" from the general population. They are not required to fight in battle.
"Why did the Levites not share in the apportionment of land of Israel and its plunder, along with their brethren? Because they were set aside to worship the Lord and to minister to Him, and to instruct the masses in His proper ways and just laws, as it is said: “They shall teach Your laws to Jacob and Your instructions to Israel” (Deut. 33:10). Therefore they were set aside from the ways of the world: they do not go to war, as do the rest of Israel, they do not receive an apportionment of land as an inheritance, and they do not obtain things for themselves by the strength of their bodies; rather, they are the Lord’s host (Heb. hayil), as it is said: “Bless, O Lord, his substance (Heb. Barekh hashem helo), [2] and He, Blessed be He, provides for them, as it is said: “I am your portion and your share” (Num. 18:20)." Rabbi Judah Zoldan
Now THAT'S a scam! Well played Levites. Well played.
I just finished reading this thread and it would seem that it is not just a Levi custom...
I think perhaps the 'hope of the messiah' is another ruse, perhaps also invented by those who were able to live comfortably off the fears of the working class.
The only down side to this that I see is that if all religion was removed from the human society, this problem would still remain.
I just finished reading this thread and it would seem that it is not just a Levi custom...
I think perhaps the 'hope of the messiah' is another ruse, perhaps also invented by those who were able to live comfortably off the fears of the working class.
The only down side to this that I see is that if all religion was removed from the human society, this problem would still remain.
If one looks at it closely, the concept of Original sin has a very strong resemblance to the ancient Caste system of India. the children carried the burdens of their ancestors.
You forget Act II - now that we all think we're evil, we give money and power to the folks who convinced us we were evil.
The longest-running scam in history...
I blame the people paying into the scam. At some point we have to hold people responsible for their actions. Despite what general American's think, you do what you do and get what you get. It aint rocket science.
good ol' regular normal/crazy pastors are not scamming anybody. But I see, just like with my atheist nit wit's, people claiming 'unity under team colors" so some are forced into it. Original sin is a joke and its time Christians stood up about it.
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But I see, just like with my atheist nit wit's, people claiming 'unity under team colors" so some are forced into it. Original sin is a joke and its time Christians stood up about it.
