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Permit me friend, a rhetorical guess: Your less than 50 years old?
Why did O postulate a guess of your age?
Because a bit before the Pope Pius VI issued a "Official Instruction" on "Life"; in it he predicted the consequences of Contraception; ALL of which have come true; AND none of them "good."
Folks less than 50 years old may not recall that contraception [NOW a multi-BILLION $ Industry] is a quite recent innovation. You can GOOGLE it if you desire more specifics.
God Bless you,
Patrick
Can you provide a link to the Pius VI document you mention?
You note that the contraception industry is a multi billion dollar industry as if that is a negative. It isn't. You would not criticize the orange juice industry for being large, nor do you (I presume) criticize the Catholic Church for being large. Why does scale seem to count as a negative when talking about contraception?
How about all of the positive effects of contraception? Once birth control becomes readily available women benefit in many ways. Education levels go up, earning power increases, life expectancy increases as well. Birth control is roughly correlated with a variety of social benefits. If you want to really discuss contraception, why don't you choose what you consider to be the single most detrimental effect, I will choose what I think is most beneficial, and we can discuss whether it is a net good or not.
=fishbrains;42202804]Can you provide a link to the Pius VI document you mention?
You note that the contraception industry is a multi billion dollar industry as if that is a negative. It isn't. You would not criticize the orange juice industry for being large, nor do you (I presume) criticize the Catholic Church for being large. Why does scale seem to count as a negative when talking about contraception?
How about all of the positive effects of contraception? Once birth control becomes readily available women benefit in many ways. Education levels go up, earning power increases, life expectancy increases as well. Birth control is roughly correlated with a variety of social benefits. If you want to really discuss contraception, why don't you choose what you consider to be the single most detrimental effect, I will choose what I think is most beneficial, and we can discuss whether it is a net good or not.
Thank you for your reply. Most people I've tried to engage with this subject matter simply ignore it. And apologies for taking so long to reply. It is hard to respond to your post from a logistical perspective because you managed to insert your most of your replies to my post as quotes within my post, so they don't appear above.
I was told by a couple who teach NFP classes that if a couple uses Natural Family Planning to plan to both conceive and avoid conception, as long as one was open to the possibility of creating new life by not using any other form of birth control, a couple was within the teachings of the RCC. This couple taught classes in a liberal diocese. Perhaps their explanation would not have been allowed elsewhere. I have not taken these classes myself and am an agnostic atheist, although I was once a Christian.
My original comments about the nuns and power were meant to imply that they aren't given the kind of power that would allow them to decide any official doctrine. Men control that area and still try to reign in the nuns. Think Simone Campbell of NETWORK.
You mentioned judgment. I spend no time worrying about how I will be judged because I don't think there will be a judgment day before god for me or for anyone else. If I am wrong, then I will be judged based on my life and, again, I'm not worried. I work in a helping profession that is considered underpaid, although I'm doing fine. How I interact with others is much the same as when I was a Christian. That includes giving money to others and organizations that work towards the kind of justice I think we need to promote. Enough of the social justice form of Christianity rubbed off on me that I feel a responsibility towards those around me who are less fortunate and I think it important to vote and influence public policy by taking action, besides just voting and shooting off my mouth in various forms of social media. Although my local activism has slowed down, I spent a good two decades being an activist with respect to local issues.
Even though we disagree on issues both of us consider important, I will give you credit for your willingness to discuss them, at least to an extent. I find it hard to follow some of your posts because they aren't a summary of your thoughts, they are a largely a recitation of bible verses. If someone is describing their thoughts in their own words, I generally read them if it's a thread I'm following. If their repeating the words of others, be it the bible or not, I skim them, if that.
Quote:
I was told by a couple who teach NFP classes that if a couple uses Natural Family Planning to plan to both conceive and avoid conception, as long as one was open to the possibility of creating new life by not using any other form of birth control, a couple was within the teachings of the RCC. This couple taught classes in a liberal diocese. Perhaps their explanation would not have been allowed elsewhere. I have not taken these classes myself and am an agnostic atheist, although I was once a Christian.
There is still theological discussions on the issue at hand. And as far as I know [have researched it recently] the Church has yet to issue a Dogmatic statement on this issue
Personally, I agree with what the teachers held to:
From our Catholic Catechism:
CCC#2370 "Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality."
CCC#2399 "The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception)."
Quote:
My original comments about the nuns and power were meant to imply that they aren't given the kind of power that would allow them to decide any official doctrine. Men control that area and still try to reign in the nuns. Think Simone Campbell of NETWORK.
This is a lot more complex than your comments seem to ME, to indicate.
God; both Yahweh and Jesus were in full agreement on this issue of "Male gender" & Female gender"' and how could they NOT be; as they ARE the same One True God.
Beginning with the story of Creation: The book of Genesis recounts that Adam was created first. Since God cannot possibly error; we can understand that there HAD to be and HAS to be a reason for this. After all God could have chosen to Create Eve First and taken a "rib" from her to make Adam; but did not choose to do so.
Do we fully know the reason? No?
Are we given some indication of the reason? Yes.
God who can be briefly described as "All good things perfected" from the beginning of recored Jewish History; has with complete continuity chosen One MAN to lead and speak on His behalf:
Noe [later Noah]; Abram [later Abraham]; Moses, the Judges, Kings Like David; & Prophets like Isaiah and the final OT prophet Malachi; who lead to John the Baptist as the last OT Prophet. John then pointed the way to Jesus, who then continued the Tradition by freely choosing 12 MEN; [Mt. 10: 1-5] to be led by Simon Peter [Mt 16:18-19]
The Church used to teach about the Leadership Role of the Father in a Family. Not having done so is quite awhile, and the evidence of this Shortfall seemly painfully evident. A 50%+ divorce rate; single families in the HIGH digests; outside of marriage birthrate at truly scary numbers, and so on.
So God once again has been proven right.
That said; both Saint JP II, and Benedict XVI made a concerted effort and significant inroads by placing women into levels of within-the-church authority never before imagined. I have heard none of this about Pope Francis; BUT that could be that it is a "Given?"
I heard [unsupported] that today the number of women seeking Theological degrees is very close to even with men?????
BUT women as you state do not have significant roles in; at least formally; influencing Church Doctrine. Which flows from the Original Christ Chosen Magisterium; the Church's Teaching authority & Body [the 12 Apostles], that today consist of ALL of the Worlds Bishops in "Communion" [agreement] with the Pope.
This too seems to have God's seal of approval i=on it. Look at the Anglicans and I THINK ??? also the Methodist who have Ordained Women Priest AND Bishops; who have then approved and advocated SSA, SSM, Abortions and so on. Talk about going to... well you get the picture.
Quote:
You mentioned judgment. I spend no time worrying about how I will be judged because I don't think there will be a judgment day before god for me or for anyone else. If I am wrong, then I will be judged based on my life and, again, I'm not worried. I work in a helping profession that is considered underpaid, although I'm doing fine. How I interact with others is much the same as when I was a Christian. That includes giving money to others and organizations that work towards the kind of justice I think we need to promote. Enough of the social justice form of Christianity rubbed off on me that I feel a responsibility towards those around me who are less fortunate and I think it important to vote and influence public policy by taking action, besides just voting and shooting off my mouth in various forms of social media. Although my local activism has slowed down, I spent a good two decades being an activist with respect to local issues.
This my friend is a totally illogical conclusion. But because its so far off topic and deserving of a discussion of its own; I will only ask:
WHY do you think humanity exist?
AND secondly: If you believe in God [if not let me know please] does there not is an absolute sense have to be; some sort of reward for doing "good" and some sort of punishment for choosing evil?
Quote:
Even though we disagree on issues both of us consider important, I will give you credit for your willingness to discuss them, at least to an extent. I find it hard to follow some of your posts because they aren't a summary of your thoughts, they are a largely a recitation of bible verses. If someone is describing their thoughts in their own words, I generally read them if it's a thread I'm following. If their repeating the words of others, be it the bible or not, I skim them, if that.[/QUOTE
]
I'm truly sorry you find it difficult following my POST:
I use the bible extensively as most folks have access and at least some familiarity with it; AND many will accept no other source as being sufficient. As FYI: The Bible does reflect my own beliefs WHEN it is rightly understood.
LIFE is a gift from God to be spent wisely. THINK about this.
God Bless you, I'm willing to discuss whatever caused you to leave Christianity if you would like too?
What do YOU suppose the asking price of a contraceptive society was and IS
Let me know if this discussion is on this thread or the name of the new thread
God Bless you my friend
Patrick
It seems worthy of a new thread. It might take me a day or two to get to it though. If you don't mind, let me read the links, and I will post the first post as my response. Otherwise a thread on Catholicism and contraception is going to get pages of responses before I get to it.
Can you provide a link to the Pius VI document you mention?
You note that the contraception industry is a multi billion dollar industry as if that is a negative. It isn't. You would not criticize the orange juice industry for being large, nor do you (I presume) criticize the Catholic Church for being large. Why does scale seem to count as a negative when talking about contraception?
How about all of the positive effects of contraception? Once birth control becomes readily available women benefit in many ways. Education levels go up, earning power increases, life expectancy increases as well. Birth control is roughly correlated with a variety of social benefits. If you want to really discuss contraception, why don't you choose what you consider to be the single most detrimental effect, I will choose what I think is most beneficial, and we can discuss whether it is a net good or not.
Hi again,
When I responded earlier I failed to address your question of "size" and its significance.
Size is important because it shows "us" just how deprived; how far we have fallen from God's grace as a society. Same sex MARRIAGE World wide over BILLION abortions annually Divorce rates hovering around % THAT's HALF of ALL Marriages end in failure Each of these issues is fueled by MEISM...What's in it for ME?
And where does one find room for God when one is only looking out for "self".
God permits us my friend to believe what WE CHOOSE; and do do what WE WANT to do; but that does not mean that God is OK with it; or that God will not render a JUST judgment because of it.
When I responded earlier I failed to address your question of "size" and its significance.
Size is important because it shows "us" just how deprived; how far we have fallen from God's grace as a society. Same sex MARRIAGE World wide over BILLION abortions annually Divorce rates hovering around % THAT's HALF of ALL Marriages end in failure Each of these issues is fueled by MEISM...What's in it for ME?
And where does one find room for God when one is only looking out for "self".
God permits us my friend to believe what WE CHOOSE; and do do what WE WANT to do; but that does not mean that God is OK with it; or that God will not render a JUST judgment because of it.
God Bless you,
Patrick
Patrick,
Your own church is moving away from your way of thinking. The Catholic Church is realizing that it is losing influence (think birth control and gay marriage), so it is changing its message. For example, the Vatican is now talking about things like climate change.
Like any business, the church must adapt to changing consumer tastes, or it will die. Anytime "truth" and money are in direct conflict, money will usually win.
If you think organized religion is not mainly about money, well, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
Your own church is moving away from your way of thinking. The Catholic Church is realizing that it is losing influence (think birth control and gay marriage), so it is changing its message. For example, the Vatican is now talking about things like climate change.
Like any business, it must adapt to changing consumer tastes, or it will die.
Please provide another example of how you think the Catholic Church is changing its message. I fail to see how talk of climate change (which seems a bit of an exaggeration regarding the papal encyclical) constitutes a change in church message.
Your own church is moving away from your way of thinking. The Catholic Church is realizing that it is losing influence (think birth control and gay marriage), so it is changing its message. For example, the Vatican is now talking about things like climate change.
Like any business, the church must adapt to changing consumer tastes, or it will die. Anytime "truth" and money are in direct conflict, money will usually win.
If you think organized religion is not mainly about money, well, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
OK BUT
Climate change and birthcontol???? What's the connection?
BC is a Moral absolute
Climate change is just HIS opinion
God less you,
Patrcik
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Permit me friend, a rhetorical guess: Your less than 50 years old? 
World wide over BILLION abortions annually
