What do you find to be strange or unusual about Catholic Beliefs (Buddhism, Jehovah's Witness)
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Ah. The old "deflect to God" argument. "It's not me! I don't hate the gays! I just do what god tells me to do!"
Common sense goes a lot further than religious dogma. Catholocism (and all other Christian denominations) are a creation of humans, not a god. And the followers contort and twist the Bible in whatever way suits their personal needs/beliefs/wants/prejudices.
When religion tells you that you can't get a vasectomy, or that a priest cannot marry/masturbate, or that bread turns to human flesh, or that a fertilized egg is a human being, they're you're allowing other humans to control you in an unhealthy way. Those things contradict science and common sense
Thankyou so much for the response. Just thought I would share something I learned recently. I can see a beautiful symmetry from the 2 perspectives. Ezekiel revealed so much concerning our Savior.
Catholic Christian faith is not just a set of doctrines and rules and presuppositions … It is a Way of Life that recognizes and carries out the conviction that there is MORE to a human life than just "biology" and impulses and the latest announced science discoveries ...
You don't have to be a Catholic, or a Christian, to have that conviction.
And one can have it without all the accompanying silly dogma and doctrine devised by men to add cachet to what they were selling to the great unwashed.
In the early church, baptisms were performed on Easter after a lengthy time of preparation. Lent was an especially intense time of preparation for the candidates, but also became a time of self-denial and reflection for all of the faithful. It became biblically tied to the 40 days Christ spent in solitude in the wilderness when he is tempted by Satan.
It is very much the same today. Adult converts to Catholicism receiver the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Eucharist during the Easter Vigil Liturgy which takes place on the evening of Holy Saturday, the day before Easter.
Long post. I simply don't have the free time to address every point, but I will try to do your response justice.
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Originally Posted by Patrick for Christ
EVIDENCE OF GOD; JESUS AS THE SON OF GOD & THE VERACITY OF THE BIBLE
My evidence will be verifiable by simple logic and the powers of observation of things around us.
Why you should believe in “my God.”
Let’s begin at the beginning. I will use the Bible which has two major sections, now called the Old Testament which dates up to about 4,000 YEARS ago; and the New Testament which now dates to approximately 2,000 years ago. Those facts alone give testimony to a “source’, a “Power” of both “unimaginable-might” and “indisputable-intelligence;” far greater than any person or thing in the recorded history of humanity.
Let's stop here. You have not yet proven the truth of the Bible. Therefore anything you base upon the Bible as premise is faulty. Your entire argument has fallen apart at this point.
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“Truth” must be what it is: Singular per defined issue. Pope Benedict XVI had this to say about truth:
“There cannot be my truth and your truth or there would be NO truth.” It is from this premise that I proceed.
Ok. Not original to Benedict, but I will agree that we are trying to agree on a singular objective truth.
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In proving God; I shall take a divided approach. First I shall establish God’s [I agree that the term “God”; at least at this juncture, is “my term”; not yours] “unlimited power.” My God, whom I shall define briefly here as: “God is all good things perfected” … secondly we shall establish that God is a God of unlimited Intelligence; and thirdly we hope to establish God, as God of unlimited authority. And finally I will attempt to give evidence of Jesus as MY God.
God of unlimited Power & Intelligence [2 for the price of 1 here because they are so much inter-related.]
I wish to first clarify that in proclaiming this; that there is one thing God cannot do. My God cannot be the direct and intentional cause of “EVIL.” God can and does permit evil to exist; but cannot by intent be the direct cause of it.
I am ok with accepting a logically non-contradictory god (small g because I am addressing the concept in general, not your proper name for your deity). This avoids the contradiction of, Can a god make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it.
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My God is the “cause”; the very “source” of all good things and all goodness. Indeed God is the primarily reason for “good” to even exist. So right off we’re going to establish that both “fairness” and “justice” are “good things.” God in Divine Justice can and does bestow Blessings for man’s good choices and permits evil for our bad choices. It is to be understood that these consequences follow man’s personal choices freely [unimpeded] exercised.
You assert this, but you do not prove this. Why should I believe you?
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The first book in the bible is termed: “The Book of Genesis;” and relates is a metaphorical manner the “Story” of Creation, of which we only have to accept as literal [1] that God is the Creator of everything that exist. [2] That Adam and Eve may have actually been called “Sam & Sally” BUT “first parents di actually exist, and that they were given a perfect existence which they squandered in a desire to get the only thing they didn’t have: namely being God! I don’t wish to get too far from our focus. My post #49, which I suggest you look up and read, explains more on this topic. In freely choosing self-interest over God they “invented sin” and caused God’s Justice to inflict the human conditions of our existence as a consequences. As previously stated, I did cover this in quite some detail in one of my post #49.
From the Bibles book called “Genesis”; Chapter 1, verses 26 & 27
[26] “Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." [27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them”
So then we ask: What “exactly” is God’s “image”? And the New Testament book of John chapter 4 in verses 23 & 24 gives us the answer: [23]”But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. [24] God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. "There’s that pesky word “truth” again.
I don't care about any of this. You are trying to use the Bible to prove the God, which is a biblical concept. This is a logical fallacy. You have not proven the factual truth of the bible, therefore you cannot use it to prove anything else, much less utself.
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To be clear: the teaching here is that God is "Spirit”; that is “ does not consist of -matter.”
Question #1: How then can man possibly emulate God? Or is the bible all fairy-tails? Can this mystery be solved, much less established?
Who cares? I did not ask you about emulating God, I asked you to prove God.
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Question #2: Did you choose what you’re wearing as you read this? If so; I can prove the existence of God.
The entire universe exist for two reasons: [1] that God could be “discovered” through its existence and structure.[2] That God would be glorified as the creator of it. I will use the Bible as evidence of this; as it also establishes the reason and a primary purpose of its existence.
You are sneaking in some assumptions that are not based on anything. You make two unproven assertions, so we are essentially back to square one. Prove any of this.
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Also from the Old Testament; the Book of the Prophet Isaiah [from whom we’ll hear more later on] shares the precise reason for man’s existence in this world.
Isaiah 43: verses 7 & 21: “[7] everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." & 21: [21] the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise. My friend you now know something most Catholics don’t even know.
Bible proving the bible. Invalid argument.
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So My God creates the entire Universe [the idea that multiple gods did this is so bizarre as to not merit discussion].
Unproven. Mere assertion on your part
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The Universe is far too Vast; Complex and well-Ordered, for there to have been more than a single source for its existence. My God did this so that his created humanity; who alone in the entire Universe of Billions of stars, galaxies and planets would be enabled to discern this reality. Unique also In the Universe is planet earth; the only one that can be scientifically proven [not thought to be; but is] able to support the life forms that we are aware of. Literally one out of Billions. That too is a critical part of MY God’s design and hopes and expectations for humanity.
Argument from incredulity. Simply because you think it too vast, compiles and well ordered to occur without a god doesn't make it so. Once again you are making an unfounded assertion.
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On planet earth with its Many Millions of things; including an uncounted number of “living things”; again, only one of them is able to love or hate. Only one is able to make complex things out of less complex things. Our cars and computers for example. That one “thing” is humanity; you and me. Nothing exist that is more perfect; more complex; more evidently God “created” than is humanity. And only man is able to logically discover and find God through the Universe that He created [a term meaning: “to make something out of nothing] for THAT very purpose.
I disagree with you on your love/hate assertion. This is unfounded and many animals have been shown to have complex emotions. Plus, emotions do not prove God. Yes, man is currently the only species capable of complex invention. So what? This does not prove God.
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The Universe is created so that man alone is able to discover God from the Majesty of size, Complexity Well-Ordered arrangement, [as in commanded; not even remotely possible as an accident or for that matter as a Big Bang. Where did the stuff that went BANG originate?]
Again, an assertion about the universe that you have not proven, you are reading purpose into the universe that you have failed to prove.
I don't know where the universe came from. It might have always been here. It might be a one in a quintillion bajillion chance. Doesn't really matter, because my lack of an answer doesn't mean that a god exists.
Where did your God originate?
I think that I have made my point, and I am running out of time. You simply make assertions and commit logical fallacies. There is no reason to accept your posts as truthful.
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url=http://y-jesus.com/is-there-any-evidence-from-secular-sources-that-jesus-even-existed/]Is There Any Evidence that Jesus Existed?[/url]
One of the earliest historians of that period was named Josephus
In another somewhat controversial passage, Josephus speaks more extensively of Jesus.
“At this time there was a man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified, and he died. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was thought to be the Messiah.”
Roman Historians: “Early Roman historians wrote primarily of events and people important to their empire. Since Jesus wasn’t of immediate importance to the political or military affairs of Rome, very little Roman history referenced him. However, two important Roman historians, Tacitus and Suetonius, do acknowledge Jesus as a real person.”
url=http://y-jesus.com/is-there-any-evidence-from-secular-sources-that-jesus-even-existed/]Is There Any Evidence that Jesus Existed?[/url]
One of the earliest historians of that period was named Josephus
In another somewhat controversial passage, Josephus speaks more extensively of Jesus.
“At this time there was a man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified, and he died. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was thought to be the Messiah.”
Roman Historians: “Early Roman historians wrote primarily of events and people important to their empire. Since Jesus wasn’t of immediate importance to the political or military affairs of Rome, very little Roman history referenced him. However, two important Roman historians, Tacitus and Suetonius, do acknowledge Jesus as a real person.”
“Tacitus (a.d. 55-120), the greatest early Roman historian, wrote that Christus (Greek for Christ) had lived during the reign of Tiberius and “suffered under Pontius Pilate, that Jesus’ teachings had already spread to Rome; and that Christians were considered criminals and tortured in a variety of ways, including crucifixion.””
“Suetonius (a.d. 69-130) wrote of “Chrestus” as an instigator. Most scholars believe this is a reference to Christ. Suetonius also wrote of Christians having been persecuted by Nero in a.d. 64.”
“Pliny the Younger was an imperial magistrate under Emperor Trajan. In a.d. 112, Pliny wrote to Trajan of his attempts to force Christians to renounce Christ, whom they “worshiped as a god.”
Emperor Trajan (a.d. 56-117) wrote letters mentioning Jesus and early Christian origins.
Emperor Hadrian (a.d. 76-136) wrote about Christians as followers of Jesus.”
Historical Facts about Jesus:
These early non-Christian sources provide the following facts about Jesus Christ:
• Jesus was from Nazareth.
• Jesus lived a wise and virtuous life.
• Jesus was crucified in Judea under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish king.
• Jesus was believed by his disciples to have died and risen from the dead three days later.
• Jesus’ enemies acknowledged that he performed unusual feats.
• Jesus’ disciples multiplied rapidly, spreading as far as Rome.
• Jesus’ disciples lived moral lives and worshiped Christ as God.
This general outline of Jesus’ life agrees perfectly with the New Testament.
Gary Habarmas notes, “In total, about one-third of these non-Christian sources date from the first century; a majority originate no later than the mid-second century.”16 According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, ”These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus. End Quotes
Personally, I find the existence of the very [and only] Church and Faith Christ founded to still exist today [now 2,000 years later, and over 1 Billion strong] to be the most compelling evidence of God, and of Jesus Christ being the “Son of God” manifested to us in human form; like us in every way but sin, for multiple reasons; a few of which I will share here, but not explain in this post:
So that humanity could grasp the reality of God through Christ, who came NOT in Kingly Majesty; but as a tiny helpless babe so as not to overpower and frighten us.
So that we could humbly grasp that God’s love for humanity is greater than man’s love of God
So that with Christ Death and Resurrection access to heaven would once again be restored; having been blocked as a part of the punishment caused by Original Sin.
So Christ could both model and teach us that He is “the Way; The Truth and the Life” and establish a new religion; with a new set of Faith beliefs; in a new form [The Church singular Mt. 16:18-19]. Pagans would have their Shrines and Temples; Jews Their Synagogue; and NOW Catholic-Christians would have their Church.
Eph.2 Verses 18 to 22 “[18] for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. [19] So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] [20] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, [21] in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [22] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place [singular] of God in the Spirit.”
Immediately after the Death and Resurrection of Christ; the Early Church was known as “The Way”
Acts.9: [2] and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem
Acts.19: [9] but when some were stubborn and disbelieved, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them, taking the disciples with him, and argued daily in the hall of Tyran'nus. [23] About that time there arose no little stir concerning the Way.
Later that “The Way” gave away to the name of Christians:
Acts 11:26 “and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church, and taught a large company of people; and in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians.”
And a bit later still the Term Christians gave way to the current name of Catholics:
Catholic: Its original meaning of "general" or "universal" has taken on a variety of applications in the course of Christian history. First used by St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 35-107) (Letter to the Smyrneans, 8, 2),
John 21:14-17 “This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to his disciples, [Apostles] after he was risen from the dead. When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He saith to him again: Simon, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. Jesus said to him the third time: Simon, son lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus said to him: Feed my sheep.
Perhaps the most astounding evidence of [1] God [2] The veracity of the bible [which is always morally true] and is neither a history book nor a science book. It more resembles a complex and profound “Instruction book” on how to live a Moral Life; and an Eternal after-life with God. NOT comprehensible without the system of guidance and governance that He personally instituted through His Church [3] of Christ being the very Son of God, rest in the numerous Old Testament Prophecies, relating Jesus as “Thee Christ.” [The name means “savior.”]
Here my friend is a site detailing 44 such fulfilled prophesies, of which I have culled but a few:
OT: Genesis 3:15 “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." [2 to 4 thousand years before it took place]
NT: Mt. 2: 1: 20 But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit [God the Holy Spirit]
[2] Messiah to be born in Bethlehem [about 700 years before it took place]
OT: Micah 5: 2 “But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel,whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.
NT: Luke 2: 4-6 “And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be enrolled with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child. And while they were there, the time came for her to be delivered.”
[3] Messiah would be born from a virgin [about 700 years before it took place]
OT: Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel. “[The name means: “God with us.”]
NT: Luke 1: 26-31 “And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth. To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus”
[4] Messiah would inherit King David’s Throne [once again about 700 years before it took place]
OT: Isaiah 9:7 “His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace: he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom; to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and for ever: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”
NT: Roman’s 1:3 “Concerning his Son, who was made to him of the seed of David, according to the flesh, “
[5] Messiah to spend time in Egypt [between 700 & 800 years before it happened]
OT: Hosea 11:1 “As the morning passeth, so hath the king of Israel passed away. Because Israel was a child, and I loved him: and I called my son out of Egypt.”
NT: Mt. 2: 14-15” Who arose, and took the child and his mother by night, and retired into Egypt: and he was there until the death of Herod: That it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Out of Egypt have I called my son.”
[6] Messiah would be declared the “Son of God” [500 to 600 years before it took place]
OT: Psalm 2:7 “The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.
NT: Luke 1: 34-35 “And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”
[7] Messiah would teach in parables.
OT: Isaiah 6: 9-10 “And he said: Go, and thou shalt say to this people: Hearing, hear, and understand not: and see the vision, and know it not. [10] Blind the heart of this people, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes: lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.
NT: Mt. 13: 34-35 “All these things Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes: and without parables he did not speak to them. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.” & Verses 10-11 “And his disciples came and said to him: Why speakest thou to them in parables? Who answered and said to them: Because to YOU it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven: but to them it is not given.”
[8] The amount of money Judas received for the betrayal & its use to purchase the “Potters field.” [400 to 500 years before it took place]
OT: Zechariah 11: 12-13 And I said to them: If it be good in your eyes, bring hither my wages: and if not, be quiet. And they weighed for my wages thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said to me: Cast it to the statuary, a handsome price that I was prized at by them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and I cast them into the house of the Lord to the statuary
NT: Mt. 27: 9-10 “Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremias the prophet, saying: And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was prized, whom they prized of the children of Israel. And they gave them unto the potter’s field, as the Lord appointed to me.”
[9] Messiah would be crucified with criminals [about 700 years before it took place]
OT: Isaiah 53: 12 “Therefore will I distribute to him very many, and he shall divide the spoils of the strong, because he hath delivered his soul unto death, and was reputed with the wicked: and he hath borne the sins of many, and hath prayed for the transgressors.”
NT: Mark 15: 27-28 “And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith: And with the wicked he was reputed.”
[10] In the Crucifixion; the Messiahs bones would not be broken [about 1,250 years before the event]
OT: Exodus 12:46 “In one house shall it be eaten, neither shall you carry forth of the flesh thereof out of the house, neither shall you break a bone thereof.”
NT: John 19: 33-36 “But after they were come to Jesus, when they saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water. And he that saw it, hath given testimony, and his testimony is true. And he knoweth that he saith true; that you also may believe. For these things were done, that the scripture might be fulfilled: You shall not break a bone of him.”
SUMMATION
So my friend;
I have responded to your request. Keep in mind that we are speaking here of things thousands of years in the past.
The practice of the Christian religion; now about 2,000 years old, is for very good reasons termed “The practice of one’s Faith.”
Hebrews 11: 1 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” The topics covered here are profound; and often mysterious. One ought not expect a great deal more evidence than is shared here.
As I noted in the beginning; it is not my task [or for that matter within my ability] to actually convert anyone. That my friend is between you and our God. My task as a conduit of His truths; which must be singular per defied issue; is to expose you to the light and love that God has for each of us. I apologize both for the tardiness of my reply; and for its length; which I found to be unavoidable.
It is my prayerful hope that this sufficiently addresses your concerns? If not, please let me know the specifics; and I will attempt to address them.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
I am reading (in a group setting for discussion) Christianity, the First Three Thousand Years, which is a history, not the work of an apologetic.
It is interesting about the connection to Ezekiel, which the author doesn't mention, but he notes that Lent (the English word for the period before Easter) is so casually mentioned in documents from around 300 that it appears to be a well-known and common practice by that point.
In the early church, baptisms were performed on Easter after a lengthy time of preparation. Lent was an especially intense time of preparation for the candidates, but also became a time of self-denial and reflection for all of the faithful. It became biblically tied to the 40 days Christ spent in solitude in the wilderness when he is tempted by Satan.
"You will burn for all eternity because of your sin.
God Bless You.
Love,
X"
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