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Old 05-04-2016, 04:38 PM
 
Location: minnesota
15,862 posts, read 6,331,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I would agree. That's why I don't claim to be speaking for God, nor do I claim to be tapped into him and have special info.
I'll hold you to that.
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Old 05-04-2016, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
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That's an interesting study. I often wonder if that is a component in why preachers "preach" instead of "teach". I've always been fascinated as to why the theatrics are desirable.
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Old 05-04-2016, 06:28 PM
 
30,902 posts, read 33,013,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
That's an interesting study. I often wonder if that is a component in why preachers "preach" instead of "teach". I've always been fascinated as to why the theatrics are desirable.
Oh, that's an easy one. Ironically...considering how so many of the very religious like to say others are pleasure-seeking but they're somehow more pure spiritually...the transcendental experience of physically feeling a rush of chemicals, including certain hormones, is the ultimate religious experience and always has been.

When you see fundies swaying with their eyes closed and their palms reaching to the air, whispering to themselves with a Joker-over-grin of ecstasy on their faces, yup, that's it. Or falling down, speaking in tongues, grabbing snakes, screaming "amen" or whatever extreme experience. But it doesn't HAVE to be those things. It can just be closing the eyes and feeling it.

What they're supposedly feeling is God's love, God Himself or whatever but what has happened is that they've achieved an altered state and part of what has gotten them there is the extreme emotion combined with a very rhythmic style of what the preacher is delivering. The dramatic drawn-out pauses, the trembling bass voice, the accents, pauses to wait for the shouted "amens" as punctuation, it basically transports and causes a type of hypnosis.

It is a chemical rush that translates to the mind as spiritual, and it is very, VERY emotional at its base. It's basically drugs, without the drugs.

Without all that drama at the pulpit, none of that stuff might happen. It IS the drama at the pulpit, combined with a sort of a mass hysteria within the church, that CAUSES this literal rush and so it's absolutely necessary that the preacher be theatrical, and know "how to do it".

Now I'm describing the cray-est of the cray here, obviously various denominations will be quieter, won't necessarily have people falling in the aisles and so on...but the drama is still necessary, even in the quieter churches. The echoing of the preacher's or priest's voice as he hangs on or draws out a word, the hands moving, the punctuated phrases and so on, they're all part of the drama that is necessary in order to produce that altered state. It may work, it may not. When people say they're "getting something out of" church it's usually this, a physical feeling/reaction/a turn-on, basically (non-sexual but a turn-on).
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Old 05-04-2016, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Florida
7,246 posts, read 7,081,130 times
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JerZ - so the summation is: religion is entertaining.


Makes sense.
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Old 05-04-2016, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,007 posts, read 13,491,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kab0906 View Post
JerZ - so the summation is: religion is entertaining.


Makes sense.
For some, more than others.

Personally I never had the biochemical constitution such that I ever found much comfort or positive stimulation or distraction in the rituals of worship. Even outside of religion, I can appreciate the many lovely places I've visited over the years, but I quickly acclimate to things like stunning scenery. I live among beautiful gorges and waterfalls now but it's a real effort for me to stop and soak it in and wring a little positive "juice" from it. In other words my hedonic tone is pretty low, to put it in scientific terms.

So I did not see much subjective difference between a pastor I knew who was green, right out of school, and clearly not a gifted speaker anyway -- and the fiery and practiced orator. They were both just conveying information. One was a little dull, the other a bit over the top and affected to me, but that was all. Nor was there a huge difference between an okay musician and a fantastic one, although this was more impressive at times. I was attracted intellectually to my faith (I am embarrassed now to admit) because my particular denomination deeply distrusted what it called "emotionalism" and claimed to have an elegant and self-consistent and objective interpretive system for scripture that you could take to the bank for accuracy. And my brain likes the concept of settled Truth. Too bad it's a fantasy concept in large part.

I certainly met people who were carried away with excitement. Some of them were dour, one foot in front of the other types in church, because that was the psychological mien of our particular tribe. But in the privacy of their home, they could tune in to one of the popular televangelists and thrill to the oratory, and the exciting testimonies of healing and the like. Televangelists were like the Christian version of porn to such people, as was some of the more upbeat Christian musicians who weren't afraid of a catchy beat and the possible "emotionalism" it might engender.

Then there was the whole phenomenon of the charismatic movement, which appealed to people who embraced "emotionalism". They wanted to "see" god "move" (in normal English, "do things") on people's behalf. So the entertainment factor is extended to people falling into trances, speaking in tongues, uttering prophecies, perhaps casting out a demon or two. I got dragged to a visiting televangelist's meeting once in which people were urged to come forward to be "slain in the spirit"; I was the only one who didn't swoon. I regarded the evangelist with an arched eyebrow; she shrugged and moved on to the next person. I guess I am just not one for the power of suggestion, or to be influenced by group hysteria. That is the upside of my lack of "emotionalism" I guess ;-) It didn't make me a very good "mark", and probably contributed to my eventual departure from the faith.
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Old 05-04-2016, 07:46 PM
 
30,902 posts, read 33,013,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kab0906 View Post
JerZ - so the summation is: religion is entertaining.


Makes sense.
Yes.

Although historically...not when you were the one on the wrong side of the rack!



But yes. It's entertaining. It hits all the right buttons, it fills all those needs, it releases endorphins (and sometimes adrenaline), it's...a rush.

That's entertainment!

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Old 05-04-2016, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Florida
7,246 posts, read 7,081,130 times
Reputation: 17828
We are alike, then. I don't get into much 'groupthinking' activities. I don't care for sports, for example. Don't play, don't watch, don't root for the home team. I'm astonished by those that memorize statistics of players and create 'fantasy' leagues. What a waste of time.
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Old 05-04-2016, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Townsville
6,797 posts, read 2,911,543 times
Reputation: 5520
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Oh, that's an easy one. Ironically...considering how so many of the very religious like to say others are pleasure-seeking but they're somehow more pure spiritually...the transcendental experience of physically feeling a rush of chemicals, including certain hormones, is the ultimate religious experience and always has been.

When you see fundies swaying with their eyes closed and their palms reaching to the air, whispering to themselves with a Joker-over-grin of ecstasy on their faces, yup, that's it. Or falling down, speaking in tongues, grabbing snakes, screaming "amen" or whatever extreme experience. But it doesn't HAVE to be those things. It can just be closing the eyes and feeling it.

What they're supposedly feeling is God's love, God Himself or whatever but what has happened is that they've achieved an altered state and part of what has gotten them there is the extreme emotion combined with a very rhythmic style of what the preacher is delivering. The dramatic drawn-out pauses, the trembling bass voice, the accents, pauses to wait for the shouted "amens" as punctuation, it basically transports and causes a type of hypnosis.

It is a chemical rush that translates to the mind as spiritual, and it is very, VERY emotional at its base. It's basically drugs, without the drugs.

Without all that drama at the pulpit, none of that stuff might happen. It IS the drama at the pulpit, combined with a sort of a mass hysteria within the church, that CAUSES this literal rush and so it's absolutely necessary that the preacher be theatrical, and know "how to do it".

Now I'm describing the cray-est of the cray here, obviously various denominations will be quieter, won't necessarily have people falling in the aisles and so on...but the drama is still necessary, even in the quieter churches. The echoing of the preacher's or priest's voice as he hangs on or draws out a word, the hands moving, the punctuated phrases and so on, they're all part of the drama that is necessary in order to produce that altered state. It may work, it may not. When people say they're "getting something out of" church it's usually this, a physical feeling/reaction/a turn-on, basically (non-sexual but a turn-on).
Very good. I think you summed it up quite well. And, even in the more conservative churches the preaching from the man behind the pulpit is almost always designed to play on one's emotions or to 'hit a certain spot' in some way. And this may not necessarily be a bad thing. A sermon coupled with an appropriate hymn, such as "Just As I Am" for instance, might just stir within an individual an overwhelming need to rid themselves of past wrongs that might persistently haunt them and bog them down. They SO long for a fresh start. And, at least temporarily anyway, this desire is sincere and may even lead to genuine tears of 'repentance', for lack of a better word. "Christianity"gives people that opportunity whereas the heartlessness of society often does not. And, it generally requires a preacher to draw out this kind of thing from a person. I've seen it actually work ...dramatically, yes, but always in a quiet and gentle way.
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Old 05-05-2016, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,926,004 times
Reputation: 1874
JerZ makes a good point, and I suppose all the people who allow this kind of attitude are no worse than the adoring fans of the rest of the entertainment industry.

Still it's kind of sickening.
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Old 05-08-2016, 04:28 PM
 
18,250 posts, read 16,928,456 times
Reputation: 7553
Anyone familiar with William Lane Craig or Matt Slick?
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