Lucifer, the Arch Angel was created GOOD? (Buddha, Satan, God)
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Hmm. I rather suspect that God being unaware of Evil (which seems impossible if he is Omnipotent and all -knowing..it is impossible that he doesn't know what evil is and what pain feels like) even if that were the case, there would be evil for us. A being that experience no pain or displeasure would nevertheless be subject to evil if he was killed. Frankly, because we are evolved to place survival as the greatest good.
It is of course subjective, but it is nevertheless existent. And for God to be unaware of it, even if he is a being that can't experience it, makes him a very different critter from one in whose divine plan we trust.
I'll leave Satan aside, because how a created angelic servant could possibly rebel, unless God needed someone to staff and run Hell, boggles the mind, but it make a sort of horrible sense if God just does what is necessary to his plan and doesn't care who cops a slab of Evil because he simply doesn't know what evil is.
The angels were created with "free will" just as humans were, God doesn't want robots. So, they had/have just as much ability to rebel as any human does/did.
Only difference, is that they do it with their "eyes wide open", IE: they KNOW the full truth of God, there's no FAITH involved in their knowledge of God
So, angels decision to rebel is irrevocable, per God's rules. Jesus dying on the cross being the cure for the sin of humans, doesn't apply to angels.
Thinking about another thread where someone offered the idea tha Lucifer was created as good, because God cannot create evil? LOL...
So I,as usual, got to pondering, that since there was no EVIL until Adam was gullible enough to taste the forbidden fruit (which I think was NOT the apple, but actually a variation of seafood) HOW WAS EVIL PRE-EXISTING prior to Adam and Steve eating the apple?
Is it possible that EVIL is the ONLY thing God did not create, thereby making EVIL the only thing to EXIST BEFORE and OUTSIDE of God?
I would say that Adam lived a life on a planet where he had obtained the prize that is promised to overcomers on this Earth. The promise and goal is to be an overcomer in that you were given a spiritual seed that was formed in you as a child and hence the term,'' Born again.''
You raise this child within you on the milk of the word until he can eat the meat of the word and he is a full grown man because God created a new thing in the world, a woman will give birth to a full grown men.''
This overcomer is promised a very specific rule in that he himself will rule all the nations on an entire Earth, and this is from within.
Jesus was raised,'' The New Adam.''
What this does is to show what the first Adam was, and Jesus took a bride in the same way as Adam being lain down in a sleep of death to take a bride from his own body, and so Jesus was lain down in a sleep of death, his side pierced to bring about a bride and he became the new Adam.
The problem being, is that we are all of the old Adam, his spirit is still within us but Jesus was not born as we are, he was the only man not born of the spirit of Adam.
So we have to die to the old nature of the old Adam, and instead of becoming a king, we become a submissive virgin to the will of our new betrothed.
Being that Jesus is the new Adam, it shows us what the old Adam was and quite possibly where he came from.
The ultimate prize of Christianity is to raise a full grown son inside of you as you are a submissive virgin miraculously found pregnant never having known your husband. This is why it is said,'' Woe to thus with children and weaning children.''
We have been made the keeper over the household of God to give his children meat in due season, and these children are within us.
If we raise a full grown man and we give birth to full grown men at our death, then we have obtained the ultimate prize where that son will rule all nations from within, and being that there are many overcomers, it insinuates that there are many Earths.
The angels were created with "free will" just as humans were, God doesn't want robots.
By the way he murdered the entire world, including the animals, out of rage for people not behaving the way He wanted, I'd say God pretty much DOES want robots.
"I don't want robots who will do what I want, I want them to choose" does not play well with "I'm going to KILL ALL OF YOU for behaving the way you choose because it wasn't WHAT I wanted you to choose, so...bad on you! Oh, and even that won't be enough. I'm so PIZZED at you choosing that I'm going to kill the innocent animals too! Death, DEATH TO ALL, dammit! -- Oh wait, I feel bad, here's a rainbow. I'll never kill a bunch of you again for choosing. Well, not via a flood, anyway. I might turn you into a pillar of salt or something BUT NO FLOODS...because I don't want robots! I want you to all exercise your free will. That's clear, right? I mean...that all made sense? We're good? Good. I'm so glad we could have this little chat."
(person having this little conversation with God develops eye twitch and runs off to seek therapy)
I mean the mental (and logical) gymnastics one has to play in order to make all this work out somehow is just...Oh, I really don't know.
But the whole "God doesn't want robots!" argument just...makes my own eye twitch. "God doesn't want robots, He doesn't want to tell you what to do, but of course, if you don't choose what He wanted you're being thrown into the fiery pits of hell...because He loves you enough to let you choose what He doesn't want, so that He can punish you with agony for all eternity" is so very Monty Python. I mean it's so bizarre and I have trouble understanding how anyone could believe it, nor believe that such a thing that is THAT crazy ought to be worshiped.
God doesn't want robots that He can wind up and they will act predictably as God wants, God wants non-robots who will just happen to choose to act predictably as God wants.
Like all of the other spirits God created, He created Lucifer's out of highly refined matter that was co-existent with Him. Therefore, God cannot be blamed for Lucifer's choices.
Yes he could be. We do it all the time with parents and their children.
With ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 05-09-2016 at 10:05 PM..
If God knows all, creates and and foresees all, then He created Lucifer specifically to "turn evil", hence God Himself created evil (an idea He Himself supports in a passage in the Bible, by literally saying so).
If God did NOT intend for Lucifer to "turn evil" then He doesn't know all and isn't the creator of all.
So choose whichever feels most comfortable.
Oh JerZ, you try. But it's called mental gymnastics and personal apologies. I can choose to believe that God "didn't want" but still intended Lucifer to turn evil because of Love or Jealousy, or something. He knows it all and is the creator of all, but evil is the absence of creation. That is good enough for those biased enough, I would think.
Oh and anyone can interpret that passage in the O.T. as "I create good and calamities" or "I create nice people and bad" or "I create acceptable and unacceptable " or " I create peace and evil" or w.e. since the words and grammar in ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek are so vague.
By the way he murdered the entire world, including the animals, out of rage for people not behaving the way He wanted, I'd say God pretty much DOES want robots.
"I don't want robots who will do what I want, I want them to choose" does not play well with "I'm going to KILL ALL OF YOU for behaving the way you choose because it wasn't WHAT I wanted you to choose, so...bad on you! Oh, and even that won't be enough. I'm so PIZZED at you choosing that I'm going to kill the innocent animals too! Death, DEATH TO ALL, dammit! -- Oh wait, I feel bad, here's a rainbow. I'll never kill a bunch of you again for choosing. Well, not via a flood, anyway. I might turn you into a pillar of salt or something BUT NO FLOODS...because I don't want robots! I want you to all exercise your free will. That's clear, right? I mean...that all made sense? We're good? Good. I'm so glad we could have this little chat."
(person having this little conversation with God develops eye twitch and runs off to seek therapy)
I mean the mental (and logical) gymnastics one has to play in order to make all this work out somehow is just...Oh, I really don't know.
But the whole "God doesn't want robots!" argument just...makes my own eye twitch. "God doesn't want robots, He doesn't want to tell you what to do, but of course, if you don't choose what He wanted you're being thrown into the fiery pits of hell...because He loves you enough to let you choose what He doesn't want, so that He can punish you with agony for all eternity" is so very Monty Python. I mean it's so bizarre and I have trouble understanding how anyone could believe it, nor believe that such a thing that is THAT crazy ought to be worshiped.
God doesn't want robots that He can wind up and they will act predictably as God wants, God wants non-robots who will just happen to choose to act predictably as God wants.
Well mmmmkay then.
Here is a Jewish explanation:
QUESTION: 1) The word “uba’in” is superfluous? 2) The flood was only brought on Noach’s generation, so why does it say, “Until He brought aleihen — upon them” — which seems to refer to all the ten generations from Adam to Noach?
ANSWER: The people of the early generations were all reincarnated in the later generations and all were reincarnated in the tenth generation. Thus, due to their continuous return to this world it says “uba'in” — “they kept coming.” Hashem hoped that ultimately they would repent and improve their ways. Upon seeing that instead of getting better, they became worse, so that “All flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth” (Berei**** 6:12), He brought the flood “aleihen” — “upon them” — i.e. the generation of Noach, which included all the preceding nine generations. - //www.city-data.com/forum/relig...l#post44006673
QUESTION: 1) The word “uba’in” is superfluous? 2) The flood was only brought on Noach’s generation, so why does it say, “Until He brought aleihen — upon them” — which seems to refer to all the ten generations from Adam to Noach?
ANSWER: The people of the early generations were all reincarnated in the later generations and all were reincarnated in the tenth generation. Thus, due to their continuous return to this world it says “uba'in” — “they kept coming.” Hashem hoped that ultimately they would repent and improve their ways. Upon seeing that instead of getting better, they became worse, so that “All flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth” (Berei**** 6:12), He brought the flood “aleihen” — “upon them” — i.e. the generation of Noach, which included all the preceding nine generations. - //www.city-data.com/forum/relig...l#post44006673
I find this very interesting, so thank you, but I don't see how it ties into the question of "free will/God doesn't want robots" v. "if you don't use your 'free will' in order to choose the way God would have chosen v. YOU actually choosing, God will kill you in a rage".
I find this very interesting, so thank you, but I don't see how it ties into the question of "free will/God doesn't want robots" v. "if you don't use your 'free will' in order to choose the way God would have chosen v. YOU actually choosing, God will kill you in a rage".
Well, we can hardly KNOW or even fathom the whole truth about God, at least in our present life as humans on Earth. 1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known".
Angels are standing right in front of God, they already KNOW the "whole truth" before accepting or rejecting it.
How about it being about as simple as this: HIS creation, HIS rules!
We can choose to accept them and live by them as best we can in our limited knowledge and understanding (FAITH). or, we can reject them, and live by any rules we want. FREE WILL either way, which was a gift from God.
We could also get into the whole trying to hash out God and Satan basically using Earth and humans as a long running giant poker game, but "there lies madness". I guess you can say that sentence boils it down as basic as you can get, but it's so simplified, it's actually terrifying to think it could be just that simple.
Then some of us realize and understand that God provided his son as a sacrifice in our place so that we DON'T have to submit to sin and die forever in sin. Now if God wasn't worth trusting, (since he obviously knows the final ending of the game) why would he have given us free will and a way out from the wrong decision?
Well, we can hardly KNOW or even fathom the whole truth about God, at least in our present life as humans on Earth. 1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known".
Angels are standing right in front of God, they already KNOW the "whole truth" before accepting or rejecting it.
How about it being about as simple as this: HIS creation, HIS rules!
We can choose to accept them and live by them as best we can in our limited knowledge and understanding (FAITH). or, we can reject them, and live by any rules we want. FREE WILL either way, which was a gift from God.
We could also get into the whole trying to hash out God and Satan basically using Earth and humans as a long running giant poker game, but "there lies madness". I guess you can say that sentence boils it down as basic as you can get, but it's so simplified, it's actually terrifying to think it could be just that simple.
Then some of us realize and understand that God provided his son as a sacrifice in our place so that we DON'T have to submit to sin and die forever in sin. Now if God wasn't worth trusting, (since he obviously knows the final ending of the game) why would he have given us free will and a way out from the wrong decision?
I find this very interesting, so thank you, but I don't see how it ties into the question of "free will/God doesn't want robots" v. "if you don't use your 'free will' in order to choose the way God would have chosen v. YOU actually choosing, God will kill you in a rage".
Think about it...It ties in...
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