Brochure from Jonestown (prophecies, atheism, Israel, worship)
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What? The People's Temple Christian Church wasn't christian? Are you for real?
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He established his communities in Ukiah and Jonestown as early Christian Socialist communities. Jones often preached that Jesus Christ delivered the most revolutionary of messages when he said to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, take in the stranger, and minister to the afflicted and suffering. No one – except Peoples Temple – had ever really tried Christianity in the “Judeo-Christian tradition,” Jones said.
Nothing in the brochure on Jesus Christ , as Jonestown was non Christians , as the leader gave no reference that Jesus was divine and only said the Jesus was a servant of God only ........ so Jonestown cult would have been a form of godliness but no power from the living God through Jesus
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Originally Posted by eddie gein
I get so tired of hearing this "Jim Jones was not a Christian" spin. Jim Jones was first an assistant minister in the Methodist Church at age 21 , then a minister in the Assemblies of God. He then became an ordained minister in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ and his church was a DoC church.
So how was he not a Christian?
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Umm because he later said he was an atheist?
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
That would do it. Did he?
He did, fairly early on, and nothing in what I read seems to change that. I certainly wouldn't consider him a Christian. It's a shame that so much promise, like the civil rights movements got mixed with an enthusiasm for Stalinist states and increasing cult isolation and dirty tricks to cover up any questions. The fact finding by Ryan was the red light and after an effort to shoot the party leaving at the airstrip, he wiped out all his following.
A cult and bad one, but not a Christian one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
What? The People's Temple Christian Church wasn't christian? Are you for real?
The following is a "testament" from their "Agricultural/Medical" brochure. The quote is taken from the Church press conference statements of Rev. John Moore and his Mrs., who had just returned from a week's visit at the Jonestown People's Temple Project... during a press conference held at Peoples Temple, May 28, 1978.
Quote:
BARBARA MOORE (Wife of Rev. John Moore)
"My impressions are, having just experienced our visit there, that this is a beautiful, heroic, creative project! It is absolutely miraculous. There are excellent medical services excellent educational services, and...it's a community of caring and sharing with an added dimension, and this dimension I would say, is Love- if you want to use that term. In a sense it reminds me of...a New Testament community, in the purest sense of the word, in the love and concern for all, that we observed. And with complete freedom for creativity! Those who want to farm, are fanning; those who wish to teach, teach; those who like to cook, cook..."
(bolding added by me).
The Peoples Temple of the Disciples of Christ, (Source)
commonly shortened to Peoples Temple, was a new religious movement founded in 1955 by Jim Jones in Indianapolis, Indiana. Jones used the Peoples Temple to spread a message which combined elements of Christianity with socialist politics, with an emphasis on racial equality. The group moved to California in the 1970s and established several locations throughout the state, including its headquarters in San Francisco. At its peak, the Temple boasted 20,000 members.
supposed FBI audio-tape transcript of Jones (already his mental health seeming to affect his speech); credit is given to The Jonestown Institute.
Quote:
First way, uh, because I was never accepted — or didn’t feel accepted — I joined a Pentecostal Church, the most extreme Pentecostal Church, the Oneness, because they were the most despised. They were the rejects of the community. I uh, found immediate acceptance, and I must say, in all honesty, about as much love as I could interpret love. They were persecuted beyond measure for their beliefs. But after some time, intellectually I outgrew Pentecostalism, but still a rebel, still not a part of the society, never accepted, born as it were on the wrong side of the tracks.
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So on down the road, I became even more alienated by that event [FBI/CIA harassment of his mother for his possible communist belief and sympathies on his part due to attending a concert by civil-rights and pro-Soviet actor/musician Raul Robeson (who himself was denied a passport and thus unable to leave the "Land of the Free" legally) and Jone's speaking out pro-Marxism in college]. I decided, how can I demonstrate my Marxism? The thought was, infiltrate the church. So I consciously made a decision to look into that pro— that prospect. Particularly was it inspired upon me — (struggles for words) I say infil— infiltrate the church. It really was brought to my attention by a very kindly (Pause) and I pause, because of again feeling that it can reflect on others — a man who had a great deal of conscience that seemed to be compatible to my views, who was a church administrator of a denomination, and he, he encouraged me to think about being a pastor. And so I did. (Laughs) Very quickly did. I’d had my religious heritage in Pentecostalism — deep-rooted emotions in the Christian tradition (Pause) and a deep love which I share to this day for the practical teachings of Jesus Christ. It had always been a sort of dual concept: a doubter, and yet a believer.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 05-22-2016 at 09:45 PM..
What? The People's Temple Christian Church wasn't christian? Are you for real?
I am willing to be persuaded, I only read one Bio. and any Christo -tendencies may have been left out. But his enthusiasm all along was for socialism and indeed marxism. He seemed to have used the trappings of the Christian church to persuade people to support and join him but he himself had no time for Christianity or any other religion. I read that he said that they had to get rid of that load of paper or words to that effect.
God post, Luminous one. But putting that against his priorities, I see elements of Christianity being used as he used elements of Ghandi (on his list of heroes. Jesus wasn't there) but always in the cause of socialism and race equality. Sorry if this seems to be grist to the republican anti Obama -mill. But Jones seems to have been a familiar type. Using whatever he needed for his personal mission. Call it a social education centre and you can leave the biscuits unopened. call it a church and they'll break the door down.
C.S Lewis in 'That Hideous strength' I believe remarked
'Say you want to experiment on Children' and they'll call you a monster. Say it's an experimental school and they'll love you.' Or something like that.
Jones took some of the socialist aspects (supposed) of the Jesus story and the early apostolic community, partly because it fitted in with his own ideas but partly because it was a good selling -point to a largely Christian populace. It was no good peddling Ghandi to them.
I would be leery of pastors who are very charismatic, Jim Jones was definitely one along with political people he had in his back pocket that he swayed to get things done in his favor.
It is just the No True Scotsman fallacy which unfortunately was a fallacy that Paul engaged in, thus giving Christians ever since scriptural support for such circular reasoning.
Fundamentalists attempting to avoid guilt by association aren't even honest enough to say "these people don't represent my view or understanding of Christianity" or "they are not true [insert name of denomination here]" but feel compelled to say they are not Christians period. But then they will, when it's convenient to them, embrace all of Christendom when claiming impressive numbers. In THAT case Christians are a full third of the world population, not the tattered remnant their persecution narrative portrays True Christians as. They will take all that doctrinal error and outright apostasy on and embrace it as their own when it suits their argument. And then turn right around and disavow their "brothers and sisters in Christ" when THAT suits them.
And the maddening part is that they don't see the disconnect themselves, at least outside the more influential clergy. Because this sort of schizophrenic thinking is no different from seeing god as benevolent and jealous and ineffable all at the same time, or seeing god as triune and yet one, or Jesus as both fully god and fully human. These aren't inconsistencies, but simply paradoxes and mysteries, part of their special pleading fallacy where god can break his own rules or behave as he pleases while condemning us for doing the same. Or be un-caused when it's ridiculous to suggest that anything else is. I could go on and on.
I get so tired of hearing this "Jim Jones was not a Christian" spin. Jim Jones was first an assistant minister in the Methodist Church at age 21 , then a minister in the Assemblies of God. He then became an ordained minister in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ and his church was a DoC church.
So how was he not a Christian?
What tenet of Christianity do you believe he was practicing when he did what he did?
Do you honestly believe that he was teaching what Christianity teaches?
God post, Luminous one. But putting that against his priorities, I see elements of Christianity being used as he used elements of Ghandi (on his list of heroes. Jesus wasn't there) but always in the cause of socialism and race equality. Sorry if this seems to be grist to the republican anti Obama -mill. But Jones seems to have been a familiar type. Using whatever he needed for his personal mission. Call it a social education centre and you can leave the biscuits unopened. call it a church and they'll break the door down.
C.S Lewis in 'That Hideous strength' I believe remarked
'Say you want to experiment on Children' and they'll call you a monster. Say it's an experimental school and they'll love you.' Or something like that.
Jones took some of the socialist aspects (supposed) of the Jesus story and the early apostolic community, partly because it fitted in with his own ideas but partly because it was a good selling -point to a largely Christian populace. It was no good peddling Ghandi to them.
Transponder half, I would say you are clearly wrong in saying that he merely "used" something he didn't believe in. I think he ACTUALLY believed in those "elements" of Christianity and Ghandi. I even quoted him SAYING Jesus was an inspirational figure to him even to that point.
Quote:
"and a deep love which I share to this day for the practical teachings of Jesus Christ." ~ Jones (cult-leader of the Christian missionary site) not knowing he was being taped by an FBI/CIA spy.
Call it a church and they will not touch it unless there are many reports of abuse, SAME with a social education centre except the center always had to properly apply and demonstrate for tax-exemptions.
An experimental school experiments on children's education, not "on" children.
What tenet of Christianity do you believe he was practicing when he did what he did?
Do you honestly believe that he was teaching what Christianity teaches?
He and his CHRISTIAN followers would have probably thought they were practicing vicarious self-sacrifice, respecting your authority figures, martyrdom for a godly cause, among a number of other desperate and contradictory Christian tenets.
Here I will highlight for you what the People's Temple of the Disciples of Christ leadership said about what his "teachings" at this poorly-hidden Missionary site were producing in their "holy spirit" view -->
Quote:
"...this is a beautiful, heroic, creative project! It is absolutely miraculous. There are excellent medical services excellent educational services, and...it's a community of caring and sharing with an added dimension, and this dimension I would say, is Love- if you want to use that term.
[implying this person meant "Love" as probably "God" but was less in coined to say it outright in those hippie times where the word "God" was stained by the harshness and ugliness of KJV Bibliolatrists and other fundamentalists].
Quote:
"In a sense it reminds me of...a New Testament community, in the purest sense of the word, in the love and concern for all, that we observed."
He and his CHRISTIAN followers would have probably thought they were practicing vicarious self-sacrifice, respecting your authority figures, martyrdom for a godly cause, among a number of other desperate and contradictory Christian tenets.
Here I will highlight for you what the People's Temple of the Disciples of Christ leadership said about what his "teachings" at this poorly-hidden Missionary site were producing in their "holy spirit" view -->
[implying this person meant "Love" as probably "God" but was less in coined to say it outright in those hippie times where the word "God" was stained by the harshness and ugliness of KJV Bibliolatrists and other fundamentalists].
*I think I meant disparate, not desperate.
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Did he?
