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...when thinking about moral decisions, deriving meaning and purpose, and other consequential matters...,....It is not that I "can't trust my own feelings" it is that I choose not to ...They have proven inconsistent and unreliable in evaluating many aspects of life.
.... It amounts to a suggestion that I return to a pattern that is not only dysfunctional for me, but that I have observed is dysfunctional or causes collateral damage to others.
and my observation is that is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"
along the lines of "i trusted my feelings and they led me to some big bad mistakes so now i don't trust my feelings for anything of consequence"
or "i had a horrible experience with church and religion, so now i don't do God at all"
or "i was in an abusive relationship with a man, so no way am i going to get married again"
or "my husband died a horrible violent death which only happened after we changed our lives and became religious"
there is a great deal of pain and hurt in each of those situations. may everyone who is in these painful places find peace and healing.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-30-2016 at 01:19 PM..
and my observation is that is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"
along the lines of "i trusted my feelings and they led me to some big bad mistakes so now i don't trust my feelings for anything of consequence"
or "i had a horrible experience with church and religion, so now i don't do God at all"
or "i was in an abusive relationship with a man, so no way am i going to get married again"
or "my husband died a horrible violent death which only happened after we changed our lives and became religious"
there is a great deal of pain and hurt in each of those situations. may everyone who is in these painful places find peace and healing.
Except that I am not broken or damaged merchandise anymore than the next person, and it is not a snap blanket decision but a considered and qualified judgment based on rather extensive personal trial and error. It is also based on my much greater levels of contentment and acceptance of life as it is, and lower levels of cognitive dissonance in my present state of unbelief vs my former one of belief.
That doesn't make it right or universal, any more than your investigations make you right or commend your beliefs to others. But it is a valid way of being and not the pout-fest you seem to think it is.
Except that I am not broken or damaged merchandise anymore than the next person, and it is not a snap blanket decision but a considered and qualified judgment based on rather extensive personal trial and error. It is also based on my much greater levels of contentment and acceptance of life as it is, and lower levels of cognitive dissonance in my present state of unbelief vs my former one of belief.
That doesn't make it right or universal, any more than your investigations make you right or commend your beliefs to others. But it is a valid way of being and not the pout-fest you seem to think it is.
of course your view is valid, because it works for you. thus in your very own words then, a valid view can be described as:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
The words I would generally prefer are selective perception, illusion and rationalizations. And I would say that the people engaging in these illusions and selective perceptions would see them as...
see?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-30-2016 at 02:01 PM..
of course your view is valid, because it works for you. thus in your very own words then, a valid view can be described as:
see?
Sure. The existence of a spirit realm, afterlives, and deities are not falsifiable and so can't be (dis)proven. So neither I nor you have anything on those particular topics but our best guesses. It is more a question of rational defaults in the absence of substantiation than a question of who is right or wrong. Or put another way, the meaning of "best" in "best guesses".
Sure. The existence of a spirit realm, afterlives, and deities are not falsifiable and so can't be (dis)proven. So neither I nor you have anything on those particular topics but our best guesses. It is more a question of rational defaults in the absence of substantiation than a question of who is right or wrong. Or put another way, the meaning of "best" in "best guesses".
no, i do not use the term "best guess" because for me it is not a guess, it is a proven reality to me with abundant substantiation.
i use the term "best for me" for my valid way of living, based on my personal experiences, views, perceptions, and beliefs.
and i use the term "best for you" for your valid way of living, based on your personal experiences, views, perceptions, and beliefs.
you can use whatever terms you like to describe your own self, but "best guess" to describe others is (still) just as offensive and insulting and condescending, as these phrases used by others on these boards: delusional, making it up, illusion, unable to think, unable to use brain, dishonest.
you can use whatever terms you like to describe your own self, but "best guess" to describe others is (still) just as offensive and insulting and condescending, as these phrases used by others on these boards: delusional, making it up, illusion, unable to think, unable to use brain, dishonest.
I suggest that you quit looking for offense where none is offered or intended. I used "best guess" for us both. It is not a derogatory term at all. My best guess is that there are no gods, your best guess is that there are. The difference between us is the epistemological methods we use to arrive at those estimates of probability. They are guesses (or estimates of probability if you prefer) because they are not addressing a falsifiable hypothesis. Gods are neither provable nor disprovable logically speaking.
I suggest that you quit looking for offense where none is offered or intended.
I used "best guess" for us both. It is not a derogatory term at all. My best guess is that there are no gods, your best guess is that there are. The difference between us is the epistemological methods we use to arrive at those estimates of probability. They are guesses (or estimates of probability if you prefer) because they are not addressing a falsifiable hypothesis. Gods are neither provable nor disprovable logically speaking.
yes, it is derogatory, and yes it is offensive. it's condescending and insulting and derisive. and you are fully aware of that, because you are a very smart intelligent articulate person with a fine command of language, and you recognize the nuance of word choice and what it conveys. My observation is you seem reluctant to use language that conveys dignity and respect. Your choice of words is transparent in that regard.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-30-2016 at 08:58 PM..
Agreed. Sorry Snowball. I cannot see any point to get hold of in your post.
I believe the O.P. is suggesting that since some unknown non-theist philosopher has agreed with a well supported view about the illogical nature of "true" nothingness then Atheists should believe in after-lives even if they don't believe in God (often theists merely use Gods to support their immortality desired, they would quickly shun/ignore unsupported ideas not tied with psychological "terror management" sub-ideas).
yes, it is derogatory, and yes it is offensive. telling someone they are guessing is the same as telling someone they are deluded and making it up. it's condescending and insulting. and you are fully aware of that, because you are a very smart intelligent articulate person with a fine command of language, and you recognize the nuance of word choice and what it conveys.
I am extremely offended and appalled by your use of the term derogatory, please I beg you to cease and desist making so many of us feel so extensively offended.
I find being told to always tell everyone that everything they say and believe is not a guess but is in fact hard fact always to be extremely offensive and humiliating.
I suggest that you quit looking for offense where none is offered or intended.
I used "best guess" for us both. It is not a derogatory term at all. My best guess is that there are no gods, your best guess is that there are. The difference between us is the epistemological methods we use to arrive at those estimates of probability. They are guesses (or estimates of probability if you prefer) because they are not addressing a falsifiable hypothesis. Gods are neither provable nor disprovable logically speaking.
the other problem with this is that you are imposing your religious views on someone else. which is something in many posts you point out is unwelcome behavior. over and over you say that you don't like it when anyone tries to impose their religious views on you, an atheist.
yet you are doing the very same objectionable behavior here: imposing your religious views ("it's all just a guess") on me. how would you like it if someone said to you "you're having a dark night of the soul, God can comfort you in your despair" or "when my friend lost her husband to a horrible violent death it strengthened her faith because she recognized she needed to repair damage that she had caused in a past life when her family perished in the Holocaust and she turned away from God and also caused others to become heretics."
you'd have a fit. and rightly so. because no one gets to impose their religious views on you. they don't get to tell you that God wants you to turn to Him. and you don't get to tell them they are just guessing.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-30-2016 at 10:28 PM..
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