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The mods have graciously allowed this thread continue for which I thank them
And they couldn't have edited what had degenerated into quarrelsome content in a better place: the point at which I posed a simple question to the fundamentalists:
"Can you name a specific incident in your life that could prove beyond a shadow of doubt to skeptics that it was indeed God and not merely good fortune that intervened to change your apparent insurmountable situation into glorious victory?"
Actually, I would be interested in hearing such. I don’t recall anyone here ever putting it just that way.
Not quite. But there are pleny who have come to the conclusion never put better than a Mod on my First Forum ("I thought for so long that i was talking to God; but then i realised that i was talking to myself".
If that means that they Leave, then of course they weren't talking to God. Unless you are talking to one of the 'always saved' types, but that 'sure - Matt D will be in heaven despite spending his life denying God - he was saved one and once saved, always.' That seems quite absurd to me.
No, the 'no real Christian' argument works better, but then the real Christians are no different from the Not -real ones. The only difference is they haven't left yet.
I'm not going to point to any particular posts, but there's a sorta argument: 'anyone who brainwashes themselves into Faith has found Truth. Anyone who looks at the evidence and find it doesn't stack up is merely in denial'. This stuff is just appeals to Faith.
The mods have graciously allowed this thread continue for which I thank them
And they couldn't have edited what had degenerated into quarrelsome content in a better place: the point at which I posed a simple question to the fundamentalists:
"Can you name a specific incident in your life that could prove beyond a shadow of doubt to skeptics that it was indeed God and not merely good fortune that intervened to change your apparent insurmountable situation into glorious victory?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Not quite. But there are pleny who have come to the conclusion never put better than a Mod on my First Forum ("I thought for so long that i was talking to God; but then i realised that i was talking to myself".
No, the 'no real Christian' argument works better, but then the real Christians are no different from the Not -real ones. The only difference is they haven't left yet.
Pretty much. I have on many occasions heard Christians say in passing on this and the Christianity board that God intervened in their lives in such a way that it was unmistakably God and not chance that pulled their bacon out of the fire. And they claimed that it only happens to them as believers in Jesus and no one of any other faith because according to the Bible it is only through the name of Jesus that such supernatural powers are tapped.
I find this argument beyond absurd and I was wondering if any theists, particularly Christians have the nerve to step forward and describe for us an incident that broke the laws of nature whereby they benefited, such as having their life saved by an angel in some miraculous way. They are on the honor system. I'm going to assume they are decent enough as theists not to fabricate a story to prove their god is real to us.
Go ahead, theists. Please present your case. Help me get my faith back. Or do you all think I am irretrievably lost?
I think this is worthy of a thread on its own merits.
Your constant use of it to refer to anyone who argues against religious arguments or for atheism is implying we have ulterior motives not based on evidence.
Anti-theism doesn't have any evidence backing it, or is that what you're admitting? As for presenting "arguments for atheism", that sounds a lot like arguments against theism to me. But if you are truly tolerant of theism, then great. I've somehow gotten a different impression of you, however.
Quote:
I have made no comment on who or what a "real atheist" is. I HAVE pointed out you do use Christian apologetics, which is good evidence you may not be an atheist.
Semantics. You insinuate that I'm not an atheist because you think identifying (rightly) that the problem of evil argument is incomplete, or that the Euthyphro is a false dilemma, etc. is "Christian apologetics" rather than basic logical fact you could learn about in any Intro to Philosophy class. You may not have said the words "Vic is not a real atheist", but you try to convey that message every time you call my posts "theistic" as if that word means something other than "believing in god".
Pretty much. I have on many occasions heard Christians say in passing on this and the Christianity board that God intervened in their lives in such a way that it was unmistakably God and not chance that pulled their bacon out of the fire. And they claimed that it only happens to them as believers in Jesus and no one of any other faith because according to the Bible it is only through the name of Jesus that such supernatural powers are tapped.
I find this argument beyond absurd and I was wondering if any theists, particularly Christians have the nerve to step forward and describe for us an incident that broke the laws of nature whereby they benefited, such as having their life saved by an angel in some miraculous way. They are on the honor system. I'm going to assume they are decent enough as theists not to fabricate a story to prove their god is real to us.
Go ahead, theists. Please present your case. Help me get my faith back. Or do you all think I am irretrievably lost?
I think this is worthy of a thread on its own merits.
I have seem plenty of such Events posted in the past. These range from someone swearing that he saw a demon fizzing around his kitchen floor to a poster swearing that he prayed for a job and immediately the phone rang with a job -offer. They may be telling the truth. Or at least believe that they are. But what we can't do is investigate their story and see what might actually have happened. The sad truth is that such anecdotal claims that can have no other explanation that 'God is real' cannot (to their great frustration) be accepted as evidence.
Doesn’t matter what he did. His claims is just as legitimate as yours.
I think it's obviously a challenge for some Western christians to understand (more than superficially) that they are being very western-centric and very christian-centric in their thinking. It seems impossible for them to conceive of vastly different religious perspectives in other parts of the world. Even if they have taken an overseas trip, they mostly just stayed on the tour bus. Let them spend the equivalency of several years in Thailand (for example) and see the domination of a culture by a different culture (Buddhism). Or in Saudi Arabia. Or India. Some of them just need to broaden their world view.
Originally Posted by jimmiej Did Muhammad die for the sins of the world? In Christianity, God reached down to man. Other religions teach man must reach up to God.
It is statements like this from jimmie that leave me agape in wonderment about the Christians. Everything we know about Mohammad comes from the Koran, Additionally Mohammad was a verified historical figure. We know he existed. We have no evidence Jesus even lived, much less saved man from their sins--all that comes from writings by churchmen, period. And yet jimmie doesn't believe what the Koran says BUT he believes what the Bible says when the books are two peas in a pod--holy books written by men who belonged to a particular religion. The ignorance is beyond belief until you actually see it.
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Everything we know about Mohammad comes from the Koran, Additionally Mohammad was a verified historical figure. We know he existed. We have no evidence Jesus even lived, much less saved man from their sins--all that comes from writings by churchmen, period. And yet jimmie doesn't believe what the Koran says BUT he believes what the Bible says when the books are two peas in a pod--holy books written by men who belonged to a particular religion. The ignorance is beyond belief until you actually see it. 
