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[quote=MysticPhD;48715674]You seem unaware that you have just contradicted yourself in the same post.[quote]
Well, here's a nice space...
You may not see it but humanist creep is visible here. Of course i cannot prove there is no god behind the evolution of human morality no more that I can prove that there is no god behin evolution. But where is the evidence?
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What you call humanist creep can as easily be explained by the fact that we all have the same Comforter within that some consider their conscience that leads to the agape that humanists clam as their own. The ONLY reasons for the issues you point to are our human fallibility and the diverse sources of our flawed knowledge and understanding of reality. That explains it all. Buddhism is an earlier form and its morality (Maitri) is not superior. Buddha did not perfectly embody it. That is why he predicted some 500 years before the birth of Jesus that another - the Maitreya - would arise and perfeclty embody the Maitri. Jesus did even through scourging and crucifixion. Your fixation on the false chronological expectation is corrupting any and all efforts to enlighten you about the process of spiritual evolution. You have no problem understanding that physical evolution is NOT chronologically driven, so why the fixation about spiritual evolution? Nothing is decided by ME, Arq. Do you not understand that there is an absolute, unchanging standard by which we can identify truth from among the dross of human ignorance and perversity? I have never said anyone does NOT have the Holy Spirit, Arq, because you know I believe we all have it, even you. We do not all listen to its promptings and sincerely search our hearts for the truth God has written there. These differences of opinion will not easilt be resolved, Arq, because each of us is invested in our particular worldview as driven by our experiences and education. Jesus embodies the consciousness of God perfectly in Agape (Maitri in Buddhism), Arq. Perfect resonance equals identity. That is where all the confusion about the silly Trinity comes from, but His apostles and disciples did not remotely have the same consciousness. Their understanding was constrained by what they previously believed about God as handed down through their traditions and myths. Any mistakes or misstatements are the results of that.
Pneuma correctly defended my views and you, as usual, never laid a glove on him, but claim to have done so. Your self-perception of your prowess seems inflated yet again.
ya, jesus definitely is inline with budha. Any sound teaching is in line with any other sound teaching. From the tribals to muslims, there is a common thread of sound/healthy social interaction for a social animals like us..
king, gandhi, mandela, and many others were in also inline. they were soft for my liking, but they were definitely in line with unity. Guys like them are best suited for peace time, IMO that is.
What you do not know about Buddhism is a lot. It has nothing to do with salvation in our own hands, it has to do with developing a disregard for the positive and negative consequences of life as a physical being out of love for all life (Maitri).
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Sorry, Arq, Buddhism has nothing to do with salvation because a complete loss of self-identity and annihilation of karma is the goal.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Youre way out in left field on that. Even a casual reader on this board can tell Trans knows a whole lot about Buddhism. Wasn't he like a monk or something and his wife is a monk or something.
I would be more than happy to debate the specifics of the version of Buddhism founded by Gautama with you, Tzaph. I practiced it for decades prior to my encounter in deep meditation. There is no God because Gautama did not trust ANY permanent entity for fear that Karma would continue. He also denied any retention of self-identity which is supposed to merge and lose all separate characteristics.
I would be more than happy to debate the specifics of the version of Buddhism founded by Gautama with you, Tzaph. I practiced it for decades prior to my encounter in deep meditation. There is no God because Gautama did not trust ANY permanent entity for fear that Karma would continue. He also denied any retention of self-identity which is supposed to merge and lose all separate characteristics.
The only brushing aside and refusal to engage the material for its logical consistency within the stated material and information being used is the pigeon on the chessboard. Sorry, Arq, Buddhism has nothing to do with salvation because a complete loss of self-identity and annihilation of karma is the goal. Given the inability to validate the information independently, the only way to defeat it is to show it is internally inconsistent and it is NOT.You do NOT have the knowledge to decide when someone has shown that I was wrong, Arq. My use of analogy for a lay audience misled them but when we engaged the material at a deeper level they withdrew acknowledging that the ideas were at least plausible. Some how you missed that. Your perceptions are becoming increasingly perverse, Arq. I am beginning to worry about you, old friend.
Your posts are showing up your lack of ability to respond in any worthwhile manner.
As always I leave it for others to decide whether or not I set out some serious objections to your beliefs - because that is all they are - and whether or not you responded fairly or just brushed them aside.
And your theistic liking for wriggling and evasion is seen in tinkering about with the meaning of 'salvation. Whether or not you (or indeed I) agree that that the extinction of Nirvana (or indeed being reborn as the spoiled brat of of a billionaire) is Salvation as much as an eternity grovelling to a divine Donald Trump, the point is that it is in one's own hands (1), not some gods, and anyone with the ability to read can see that was the point and you are wriggling so as to try to make some cheap point.
Mystic, it is a fact that I saw your 'science' demolished while you tried to deny it, and then wriggled just as you do here and shifted your argument to it not being science as we know it which is only an 'analogy' of the unknown science of Dark-matter-god that you postulate.
This has been seen and is known and to deny it just makes you look ...how you look. I don't recall that they accepted anything of your 'science' as plausible. In fact I can tell you from personal knowledge they saw you as much of a fraud as i see you as a bamboozler. But I at leat understand that this isn't the real Yopu, and this is Faith -belief doing this to you. It is making you fight to admit being wrong about anything you can't shrug off, as that you destroy the glass eglise which you and other theists have built.
And I suppose you have nothing to lose by smeary hints that I am cracking up. If anyone has not now sussed you, with our without my help here, as peddling a very ingenious theory but as crackpot as Noah's ark or the cloud -cover theory (but not as bad as volcanoes blowing Koalas to Australia) then it can only be because they are as determined to cherry pick and invert evidence, reason and even intellectual honesty in the cause of maintaining Faith as you.
No. I am not cracking up, and neither are you, but faith -based adherence to whacky beliefs just makes it look like it.
I do hope the others waiting their turn to engage the Hollywood swwordsman now understand you a bit more and know where you weakness are.
(1)post 697 This is what you said (underlining mnine): "What you do not know about Buddhism is a lot. It has nothing to do with salvation in our own hands, it has to do with developing a disregard for the positive and negative consequences of life as a physical being out of love for all life (Maitri)."
Folks, watch and learn the shifting and wriggling and evasion (not to mention the attempt to derail the conversation into discussing this or that bit of the hypothesis), and learn.
It is the same sidestepping, as we see here.
"Why is the evolution of cognitive constructs about God NOT the same as the evolution of our physical characteristics, Arq?"
The idea of religions as a spiritual fossil record of God's teaching -curve is presented as 'evolutionary' to make it sound convincing. But as soon as I show up how this makes no sense, you shift position. But don't explain how that works, of course, just resort to the 'you don't have the wits to understand' ploy.
it is a basic clue, folks, to theistic thinking that argument is not based on coherent construct, shifting and wriggling, selecting this or that bit of science, a quote from scripture, a poem, or Mother Goose if it helps and is like a caddiss -worm (I think that's the one) that builds up a shell of bits and pieces to protect the jelloid body of the belief itself.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-04-2017 at 05:48 AM..
As if your caddis illustration actually stated the case when you have been told MANY times that such quotes and examples are not bits of any kind of authority, but illustrations of elements of a cohesive whole based on the nature of the entity encountered and NO other authority needed.
Youre way out in left field on that. Even a casual reader on this board can tell Trans knows a whole lot about Buddhism. Wasn't he like a monk or something and his wife is a monk or something.
Just for a Token Ten days, Tzaph, but I would rather a left arm was cut off (just so long as it wasn't mine) than wave my monastic certificate about as Proof that I'm right. But anyone who has ANY undertanding of Buddhism knows that Buddhism explains how to escape the wheel of rebirth (that's if one wants to) and that is the salvation offered. But the point is - it is entirely in your own hands and not at the whim of some god or other. And that was the point I was making - that is more sophisticated and better and an evolutionary development beyond Christianity - but it came half a century before.
So Mystic has to explain how the learning - curve theory doesn't fit and has to escape by vaguely suggesting that it isn't 'linear' (it isn't even global) which is evasive enough but makes it look more unplanned human "spiritual" evolution that divinely directed.
ergo - Mystic is losing ground all the time..
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Trans is right . Mystic does just this.
That seems the inescapable conclusion of the Holy spirit aka 'comforter' within us, which is also the radio signal of information that is clearly the basis of confirmation that the beliefs that one has are true. It is the basis of faith - that it is radioed in by God.
The "Can't even agree what colour it is" problem of divine revelation id inevitable as it is obvious. Only Mystic has the earphones off.
This claim is crystal clear. And the only way around this problem is to drop all the disagreements and agree on one thing only - the feeling of an experience of the divine Whatever, which even the most skeptic skeptic cannot deny is a real experience, though we may reserve belief about what causes it. But I'd venture to suggest that, as soon as one starts squabbling about scripture, (unless they can validate their claim over the other - and if they don't use valid science and logical reason -not analogies of science and reversed logic it is hard to know where the validation lies) they have put their own Version of Faith Belief in divine /spiritual connection on the line.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
I didn't say I know it.
I said Trans does.
I ought to add that I always did Theravada which is like the basic No Frills Buddhism, rather than Mahayana or the 'Greater vehicle' or one might say the "for the masses" vehicle. It is rather like Protestantism vs. Catholicism, except that Theravada (or Hinayana -the "Little" vehicle as the Mahayanists deprecatingly call it) is considered the original and the Mahayans with the Tantric and Zen spin -offs is reckoned later. It was frankly re invented to suit the masses. They want gods - give 'em demi -gods at least. They want icons - give 'em icons. They want elaborate ceremonies? Give 'em elaborate ceremonies.
May the all seeing Mods forgive me my digressions. I am very, very guilty.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-04-2017 at 06:58 AM..
You seem unaware that you have just contradicted yourself in the same post.
Well, here's a nice space...
You may not see it but humanist creep is visible here. Of course i cannot prove there is no god behind the evolution of human morality no more that I can prove that there is no god behin evolution. But where is the evidence?
That was Mystic quoting me.
Arach
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ya, jesus definitely is inline with budha. Any sound teaching is in line with any other sound teaching. From the tribals to muslims, there is a common thread of sound/healthy social interaction for a social animals like us..
king, gandhi, mandela, and many others were in also inline. they were soft for my liking, but they were definitely in line with unity. Guys like them are best suited for peace time, IMO that is.
Yes. Whether one takes these scriptural records as reliably true (1) or not, they are there as teachings. Whether sound or not is always open to debate and trying to award particular weight to this or that 'teaching' by claiming divine authority for it is a favourite swindle and we should beware of it.
(1) and I can tell you I doubt that the Tripitaka really records what Buddha said and did (rather than compiled by a committee of Monks who decided what Buddhism ought to teach) or the Quran really records the teachings of Muhammad rather than they were written under Abbasid authority to suit themselves.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-04-2017 at 06:59 AM..
... -the "Little" vehicle as the M deprecatingly call it.....
Another parallel.
There is a difference between saying "this works for me and is a good path for me to strengthen and nourish my relationship with the Divine"
And adding on the bit about "if my way is good therefore orher ways are bad/wrong/outdated which makes me superior/smarter/better"
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-04-2017 at 07:18 AM..
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