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Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 11,437,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoaminRed
I want YOU to prove it, since you're the one saying it's fact. Show me your proof now, not some cop-out excuse of "later".
In all actuality, you're the one that's in for a surprise. Oh wait, no you aren't -- because there is NOTHING after death except pushing up daisies. So you won't be around to be "surprised".
Dear friend I feel a bit of passion in your words, that can be positive because it means you are convinced, but it can turn into fanatism.
btw you didn't answer to my post yet I'd love to receive your input
You keep demanding absolute proof for the existence of God, but you never offer any proof or evidence that God doesn't exist.
The burden is not on the non-believer. And where did I say absolute truth? I'd like to see just one tiny little shred of "maybe" but none of you can show it.
Atheist are just people who all believe and stand for different things, it is a complete error to assume that there is some kind of atheist or atheism doctrine we all believe in.
Asking this is forcing your religious world view where it does not belong
The burden is not on the non-believer. And where did I say absolute truth? I'd like to see just one tiny little shred of "maybe" but none of you can show it.
So what you are saying is that you have no evidence or proof for your belief that there is not God?
Seeing that I've had experiences that make it irrational for me to not believe in God, the burden of proof is on you to come up with evidence that my experiences are wrong.
So what you are saying is that you have no evidence or proof for your belief that there is not God?
Seeing that I've had experiences that make it irrational for me to not believe in God, the burden of proof is on you to come up with evidence that my experiences are wrong.
I had an experience once, prove it didn't happen.
Edit: Actually, I kinda do have an "experience".
My mother was raised Catholic and was a strong believer for most of her youth. When she was (I think) about 14, she got really sick and nearly died (cirrhosis of the liver). Supposedly, her uncle went to the Vatican and bought some (or was it free?) holy water that had been blessed by the Pope. On what was supposedly her death bed, he flicked the water on her and she was cured. If that wasn't enough, she also saw a blinding light that told her that "everything was going to be okay".
She recovered, and the experience strengthened her faith. That is, until she got older and learned that she wasn't really on her death bed (there was a chance she could die, like after any operation). After she met my father, an atheist, she began to question her faith even more, pondering things like: "If I were raised Muslim, would I of converted to Catholicism?". She couldn't be sure what she would have believed if her parents had raised her to believe something else. Around this time she actually got around to reading the Bible for the first time and couldn't believe how many contradictions and flaws she found. As a Catholic, she already believed in evolution, and she understood that the Bible wasn't literal, but even knowing that, she couldn't believe in the Christian God any more. Even the historical facts in the Bible didn't match up with what we knew then.
She still believed in a God, though, because of what she experienced that time when she was extremely sick. She didn't renounce Catholicism for fear that her family would disown her, or hate her, but she was more of a deist up until two Christmases ago when me and my wife were back home visiting them and my father brought up an article he read about how scientists had discovered that it's extremely common for people to hallucinate while having a near death experience, which of course lead into a discussion of what kinds of hallucinations could occur, which lead to my mother thinking about how she was indoctrinated to believe that God was real from a very young age and how that could've had an effect on her back then.
You can roll your eyes all you want, but that's not what I meant. What I meant was that neither theists nor atheists have any evidence for their belief or disbelief in God...she demands proof of me to believe in God, I demand proof of her to believe there is no God. We're at a stalemate. However, according to my experiences, I now have personal evidence to believe in God--if she wants to convince me atheism is true, then she needs to come up with proof or at least reasonable evidence that God doesn't exist--that evidence is needed to overcome the evidence of my experience.
Well, if you look at my post again you'll see that my own mother had an experience which she eventually got over due to logical thinking and evidence to support logical thinking.
Like others have said before me, we cannot prove that a God doesn't exist, just like we cannot prove that invisible unicorns are among us. It's highly improbable, therefore we do not believe. The evidence we have does not disprove a God, but the evidence does not lean towards one existing.
She recovered, and the experience strengthened her faith. That is, until she got older and learned that she wasn't really on her death bed (there was a chance she could die, like after any operation).
So what? How is this evidence that God didn't save her from death anyway?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter
After she met my father, an atheist, she began to question her faith even more, pondering things like: "If I were raised Muslim, would I of converted to Catholicism?". She couldn't be sure what she would have believed if her parents had raised her to believe something else.
But she wasn't raised a Muslim. Why couldn't God have taken into account that she was a Christian and so address her as such. If she was a Muslim, she may have had an entirely different experience--perhaps one that would have led her to Christianity. Again, I just don't see how this is evidence against her experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter
Around this time she actually got around to reading the Bible for the first time and couldn't believe how many contradictions and flaws she found. As a Catholic, she already believed in evolution, and she understood that the Bible wasn't literal, but even knowing that, she couldn't believe in the Christian God any more.
With all due respect to your mother, reading the Bible for the first time doesn't make you an expert at biblical exegesis. I know dozens of Ph.Ds who have converted from atheism, studied the Bible for many decades and still believe it to be inerrant and infallible. So your mother thinks there are contradictions in the Bible, many would argue rationally otherwise; again, I don't see this as strong evidence against her experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter
Even the historical facts in the Bible didn't match up with what we knew then.
I can say the same thing here as I did above. I know historians with a lot of education that still believe in the historicity of the Bible. In fact, much archaeology has supported the biblical claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter
She still believed in a God, though, because of what she experienced that time when she was extremely sick. She didn't renounce Catholicism for fear that her family would disown her, or hate her, but she was more of a deist up until two Christmases ago when me and my wife were back home visiting them and my father brought up an article he read about how scientists had discovered that it's extremely common for people to hallucinate while having a near death experience, which of course lead into a discussion of what kinds of hallucinations could occur,
I think this is the only evidence you have presented to me--that her vision could have been simply a hallucination. Decent evidence--yes; conclusive evidence--certainly not. The fact that she got better suggests to me that maybe it was from God. The fact that God uses secondary causes (such as fever hallucinations) means that even if the hallucination was caused by dying, it could still have been a vision from God as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter
which lead to my mother thinking about how she was indoctrinated to believe that God was real from a very young age and how that could've had an effect on her back then.
So now we're a happy family of atheists.
This seems somewhat circumstantial. As if to say: It is unlikely that God came to me in a vision because I believed in God to begin with.
I could easily look at as: she believed in God therefore it was more likely that God would come to her in a vision.
But, it could be true that God never came to your mother...I don't know...
Well, if you look at my post again you'll see that my own mother had an experience which she eventually got over due to logical thinking and evidence to support logical thinking.
Like others have said before me, we cannot prove that a God doesn't exist, just like we cannot prove that invisible unicorns are among us. It's highly improbable, therefore we do not believe. The evidence we have does not disprove a God, but the evidence does not lean towards one existing.
Other than the life experience and belief of 5 billion people and their ancestors agree that God almighty not only exists, but is active in their daily lives. How many rely on unicorns? A thousand people? A million?
What is the Unicorn doctrine, and who are their prophets, and scribes?
Atheist are just people who all believe and stand for different things, it is a complete error to assume that there is some kind of atheist or atheism doctrine we all believe in.
Asking this is forcing your religious world view where it does not belong
No force in asking, its just asking....
godspeed,
freedom
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