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That's nice. Once again, you assume you've got all the facts when you don't. And at this point, I'm going to permit myself one and only one "cop-out." Here's a link for you: Money and the Book of Mormon. Read it and then come back and blow me off. Just don't expect me to discuss it further. I'm done playing "My expert is smarter than your expert."
I'l get back to the rest of this post ( and, yes, I don't feel obliged to confine it to what you would prefer to discuss) but I'll just mention this bit. No, I don't have 'all the facts' but I will work out this odd system and post on it. I don't mind the posting of a link - I don't think you take advantage of doing this to overload. But right away I saw it was a strawman argument about 'coins'. I was careful not to say 'coins'. Rather values or currency bars of some kind, because the references to gold and silver (and the value in measures of grain) suggests a token of silver or gold, doesn't it? So the 'coins' argument is a red -herring. The point is that it is a very unwieldy system - that I do remember.
I'd also mention the 'lost tribes' idea. That (so Hitchens I think, mentioned) was an idea published at the time and it is suggested that this, with the grave mounds gave Smith the idea. It is not being suggested that the Nephites were supposed to be the 'lost tribes' as such.
P.s I do see (a quick look) that 'coins' is debated quite a bit. I can imagine that the Shums and Limnah Sound like coins, but I don't see much future in trying to prove that Smith had coins in mind, and even if he did it is a question of 'translation' rather than Numismatic archaeology.
Some of the BYU sites on it relate the values of these Senine and Ontis to the dollar, but hardly hint at the clumsiness of the currency system
Oh and when you say 'Last Post' does that mean that you don't intend to refute my argument that Maya and Aztec etc don't resemble Hebrew language or script?
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-05-2018 at 11:56 AM..
I'd be curious to hear what you think of the Egyptian book of the dead debacle where Joseph Smith supposedly translated a papyrus into the Book of Abraham and it was actually found to be the Egyptian book of the Dead that he "translated".
Yes, just like we wonder about the plagiarism of the story of Gilgamesh, why scholars are convinced Deuteronomy was written before Genesis (he Edomite kings listed in Genesis 36 did not live until after Moses was dead), the Hebrew of the text includes terms that were developed long after Moses' death, camels are listed in Abraham's retinue, but camels were domesticated around 1000, long after Abraham (1550 BCE) and even Moses (1250 BCE), and I could go on and on.
In other words, when a person or people develop a mythology of their faith, don't expect it to comport with reality and real history. Moses (who likely never existed) didn't, Paul of Taurus didn't, Mohammed didn't, Smith didn't, Ellen White didn't and certainly Hubbard didn't.
I didn't read the whole thread yet so forgive me if any of these questions were asked.
OK I know Kolob isn't a core teaching or anything but I was wondering how they know Kolob is the actual name. Did a person name it Kolob so people would have a way to refer to it or is it the name God calls it too? If God named it Kolob how did people come into possession of that knowledge? It just seems like it would be a strange piece of information God would seek to convey.
Second question: I just saw on the exMo site them talking about a man named Sam Young. What do you know about what's going on with that?
If I get correctly the idea of an Onti of silver and an Limnah of gold equalling the value of other curencies put together, this is how it seems to work out=
A Silver Onti = 3 Ezrom, 6 Amnor 12 Senum, 24 Shiblon and 48 Leah.
It also equals I gold Limnah, 3 gold Shum, 6 gold Seon and 12 gold Senine, a gold Senine being equal to a silver Senum.
Thus Silver Shiblon and lean are the small change. The system of equal values (both an Onti and Limnah buy 9 'measures' of grain) certainly sounds like a token/bar if not coinage rather than weight -value to have equal value in gold or silver given different names all the way down, even if they have equal value.
It's one to argue about, but I think it a clumsy system though i am impressed how Smith didn't seem to slip up or get his figures wrong.
And of course, like Wheels, Horses or iron, there is no sign that I heard of any of these gold or silver currency - tokens or bars being found.
Now I shall have to try to master this DNA tracing science to get just why genetic drift doesn't explain why no Hebrew DNA is found in native Americans - anywhere.
I've had to appeal to 'authority' here - though I supposed that it was a valid Authority, and -as i said - it seems to be accepted that no Hebrew DNA has been found, and the arguments are aimed at explaining why that is so when it ought to have been found, apart from the one claim of '5 Jewish Haploid markers'
I suspect that this might be akin to the arguments against Primate DNA when the Creationists argue that we share DNA with Cauliflowers too. You can find genetic links to anything else if (as the theory goes) we are all descended from one origin. but if native Americans have 5 Haploids that Jews have, then they ought to be found in other genetic groups, too. That's what I'll be looking for.
Mormonism is absolutely as 100% true as any other religion on the planet.
Christians are funny... laughing at the funny ideas Mormons have without ever realizing they believe in stuff that is just as ridiculous.
For example, few Christians of any sect would question that Moses was an actual historic figure but there is ZERO evidence outside of religious stories to show the guy existed or that the Exodus ever even happened.
How about the story of Noah... so physically impossible on so many levels with no evidence of a global catastrophe?
That's to say nothing of your belief that a carpenter in a backwater Roman province a couple thousand years ago turned out to be the actual God of all creation who came to earth to die for everyone's sins (because somehow that's a thing ) and saved the world... I guess from a vengeful father who demands punishment of his "children" who misbehave and fail to worship him correctly. Yet, this God is somehow also Jesus the God because, reasons. Some of y'all even become vicarious cannibals and eat pieces of your dead god on Sundays to show fealty to him.
So when attacking Mormons for their beliefs I say: "let he without silly religious beliefs of their own cast the first stone."
I can't see how Mormon beliefs actually hurt anyone otherwise, other than subjecting some people to weird underwear jokes and making it a bit of a hassle for me if I wanna drink on Sundays.
Wait...are you suggesting that Mormons are not Christians?
Why don't you clear that up for us from your knowledge of studying the bible. You claim to know it so well, but won't discuss it with anyone else who has studied it.
Why don't you clear that up for us from your knowledge of studying the bible. You claim to know it so well, but won't discuss it with anyone else who has studied it.
Why not tell us... are Mormon's Christian?
I wouldn't dream of declaring otherwise on these forums.
Wait...are you suggesting that Mormons are not Christians?
Christian = follower of Christ, right?
I'd guess some Mormons are Christians, some are Joe Smithians, others are Russel M Nelsonians and others are Dollaronians. The majority are probably Heavenly Fatherinians and "leave me the hell aloneians" these days.
Hard to shoehorn millions of people into one category and know all the different places where their hearts really are.
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Nephite numismatics.
) and saved the world... I guess from a vengeful father who demands punishment of his "children" who misbehave and fail to worship him correctly. Yet, this God is somehow also Jesus the God because, reasons. Some of y'all even become vicarious cannibals and eat pieces of your dead god on Sundays to show fealty to him. 
