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So , moving on, perhaps you have answered this already. If so , if you could give me the post number. The Eastern Orthodox have a doctrine they call theosis, by which Christians become (little g) gods , or deified , through union with God. Is the Mormon doctrine similar, or exactly what is the process and end result (type) of god a Mormon becomes?
There were marriages and living arrangements that went against US law, which is why Mormon men went to prison for violating a law you say wasn't being done. How does that work then? How do over 1000 Mormon men get sent to prison for polygamy if it isn't happening as both of you wish to claim? I'm very interested in hearing an explanation for why a thousand Mormons went to prison for something that wasn't being done .
In addition to the legal prohibition against more than one wife, laws were made against co-habitation specifically aimed at the Mormon practice of having one legal wife, but more women they were spirit married to, co-habitation, etc. Many went to prison over that, or fled to mexico or Canada. Or hid it well.
I agreed with you that the Manifesto promised to stop that. Please don't confuse my posts with another's. Where TaxPhd and I agree is that within the Mormon church, Spiritual polygamy is still important, and still happening. He feels that it's always been the only part that ever mattered. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with him on that, though that is not my understanding.
I illustrated a case of a Mormon woman for whom this is a big problem. She is not the only one. For them, the Spirit polygamy is real. And not just after they die. While here on earth, her husband is still married to his first wife under Mormon rules. He can get clearance to also marry her, but he cannot get divorced in the way that is most important to them, a Temple divorce. If she goes through with marrying him in the Temple, she is entering polygamy. Your definition or the USG's definition of polygamy is immaterial. The Mormon definition is sealed, or Temple married (same thing) to more than one woman at a time.
In addition to the legal prohibition against more than one wife, laws were made against co-habitation specifically aimed at the Mormon practice of having one legal wife, but more women they were spirit married to, co-habitation, etc. Many went to prison over that, or fled to mexico or Canada. Or hid it well.
I agreed with you that the Manifesto promised to stop that. Please don't confuse my posts with another's. Where TaxPhd and I agree is that within the Mormon church, Spiritual polygamy is still important, and still happening. He feels that it's always been the only part that ever mattered. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with him on that, though that is not my understanding.
I illustrated a case of a Mormon woman for whom this is a big problem. She is not the only one. For them, the Spirit polygamy is real. And not just after they die. While here on earth, her husband is still married to his first wife under Mormon rules. He can get clearance to also marry her, but he cannot get divorced in the way that is most important to them, a Temple divorce. If she goes through with marrying him in the Temple, she is entering polygamy. Your definition or the USG's definition of polygamy is immaterial. The Mormon definition is sealed, or Temple married (same thing) to more than one woman at a time.
No, MY definition is what the Mormons mean on the subject of polygamy in the Official Declaration 1 , so it is the ONLY definition that IS material when one is discussing the fact that the Mormons promised to end polygamy . The Mormons did NOT promise to end spiritual sealings, something which the US government couldn't care less about.
Mormons may still seal men to more than 1 women in some internal religious ritual. But that is not what has been under discussion since I referenced the Manifestos and Tax claimed they weren't referring to the legal aspect of actual having-sex polygamy that the US opposed .
( A general "sorry" for the repeated CAPS . Some readers seem to need a little extra help understanding things )
No, MY definition is what the Mormons mean on the subject of polygamy in the Official Declaration 1 , so it is the ONLY definition that IS material when one is discussing the fact that the Mormons promised to end polygamy . The Mormons did NOT promise to end spiritual sealings, something which the US government couldn't care less about.
. But that is not what has been under discussion since I referenced the Manifestos and Tax claimed they weren't referring to the legal aspect of actual having-sex polygamy that the US opposed .
( A general "sorry" for the repeated CAPS . Some readers seem to need a little extra help understanding things )
I have no idea why you are repeating yourself to me regarding what another poster said. And you're twisting what he said, but whatever. I guess you missed my post where I stipulated that you and I agree regarding the Manifesto, which is strange because you are quoting it.
Quote:
Mormons may still seal men to more than 1 women in some internal religious ritual
Which is what I am trying to discuss, since the topic is Mormon Doctrine.
I have no idea why you are repeating yourself to me regarding what another poster said. And you're twisting what he said, but whatever. I guess you missed my post where I stipulated that you and I agree regarding the Manifesto, which is strange because you are quoting it.
I am not twisting what he said in the least . He claimed the Manifestos weren't about legal issues . Without dispute they are .
And I read your post. I just quoted the entire post and then addressed one part of it where you claim my definition is immaterial, when mine is the only one that matters because it is what the Mormons actually said on the subject under dispute .
Quote:
Which is what I am trying to discuss, since the topic is Mormon Doctrine.
This specific sub topic has been about whether the Manifestos addressed spiritual matters in the church and so the church lied about polygamy , or whether they addressed legal matters with the US law and they did what they said they would do. If you entered that specific part of the discussion without knowing the subject matter then that is your fault . My exchanges with Tax dealt solely with this matter .
I am not twisting what he said in the least . He claimed the Manifestos weren't about legal issues . Without dispute they are .
And I read your post. I just quoted the entire post and then addressed one part of it where you claim my definition is immaterial, when mine is the only one that matters because it is what the Mormons actually said on the subject under dispute .
This specific sub topic has been about whether the Manifestos addressed spiritual matters in the church and so the church lied about polygamy , or whether they addressed legal matters with the US law and they did what they said they would do. If you entered that part of the discussion without knowing the subject matter then that is your fault . My exchanges with Tax dealt solely with this matter .
You and I agree on that part. At what point will you cease addressing me regarding your disagreement with another poster? As to this odd claim that I don't understand the matter, I most certainly do. I elaborated in great detail on the how and why I agree with you regarding what the Manifesto said, and what it accomplished.
I elaborated upon it before I had to repeat myself so you'd understand we agree, LOL.
So , moving on, perhaps you have answered this already. If so , if you could give me the post number. The Eastern Orthodox have a doctrine they call theosis, by which Christians become (little g) gods , or deified , through union with God. Is the Mormon doctrine similar, or exactly what is the process and end result (type) of god a Mormon becomes?
I've never seen or heard a Mormon statement that answers your question directly, but to the best of my understanding, we believe pretty much what C.S. Lewis said on the subject:
“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were 'gods' and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."
Source: Mere Christianity
I'll reiterate one point that he made: The process will be long. People say that Mormons believe that when they die, they become a god and get their own planet to rule over. That's such a juvenile way to put it. I'm going to be out for the rest of the evening, so I'll just leave you with this link.
You and I agree on that part. At what point will you cease addressing me regarding your disagreement with another poster?
At the point you quit referencing spiritual sealings to imply the Mormons are violating the Manifestos regarding agreeing to stop practicing polygamy, as you did in post 575.
Perhaps you wish to clarify your belief. Do you think sealings are mere religious ritual that does not violate the Manifestos announcing their abandonment of actual having-sex polygamy, or do you believe the religious ritual of sealing is actual polygamy as defined by the US government and the Mormons lie when they say they have stopped polygamy?
Last edited by wallflash; 09-19-2018 at 06:18 PM..
At the point you quit referencing spiritual sealings to imply the Mormons are violating the Manifestos regarding agreeing to stop practicing polygamy, as you did in post 575.
Perhaps you wish to clarify your belief. Do you think sealings are a violation of the Manifestos announcing their abandonment of polygamy, or do you believe the religious ritual of sealing is actual polygamy as defined by the US government and the Mormons lie when they say they have stopped polygamy?
You misunderstood. Go back and read that post. I said to me, they are violating it in the way that I outlined. Perhaps you didn't continue to what I said after that. The Manifesto was about addressing USG definition of polygamy, not the Mormon Doctrine.
I am done with the USG part. No one disputes that part. Additionally, no one, including Katz, disputes the part I and Tax wanted to talk about. That polygamy remains in the Temple.
I think you are chasing your own tail at this point.
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