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A Q&A session with only one person's personal interpretation being on the 'answer' side?
Actually, there was really very little Q&A. It was mostly just folks trying to tell me what I believe. It has given me the opportunity to clear up some misconceptions, though. So in that regard, I'm still glad I started the thread.
Polygamy was illegal in Illinois where it was first practiced by the Mormons. The legality of the practice in Utah territory was questionable, but that was addressed in 1862 when it was made clearly illegal at the federal level. From that date until the second manifesto in 1904, polygamous marriages were still happening. But this is the important part - those polygamous unions were not legal marriages. They couldn’t be, as it violated the law of the land. The polygamous spouses were not legally married, they were sealed. Those sealings were never legal marriages. It’s very clear that the manifestos weren’t a prohibition on legal polygamous marriages, as no legal polygamous marriages were being performed at that time.
It’s easy to see how your lack of understanding of both the doctrine and the practice results in your erroneous conclusions. Hopefully this thread has improved your education on the subject.
Man, I will give you this . You are stubborn, even when it makes you look foolish . All you have done here is repeat the info I gave you, so I guess at the least you are getting an education about your own former faith . But you seem strangely unwilling to take the time to do any further research into your lack of knowledge before continuing to make foolish remarks . Perhaps you get a kick out of looking silly, who knows . But let's recap.
You stated that the Mormon statements on polygamy have nothing to do with legal matters but spiritual ones and imply that they are then lying when they continue to do sealings to multiple spouses. I pointed out that the Manifestos of the church on polygamy are about legal matters and physical polygamy only , and thus does not conflict with doing these spiritual sealings. I have supported this with the following facts .
The US passed laws in 1890 outlawing polygamy, making it a felony punishable by prison, and made it easier to prove , as the government was allowed to legally presume polygamy if it found a Mormon man living with more than one adult woman . It also revoked the legal status of the Mormon church . 4 months after this law passed the church announced its Manifesto on polygamy ( known in Mormon theology as Official Declaration 1, since the topic here is the official statements of the church on polygamy ) , in which the head of the church writes, and I quote
"Inasmuch as LAWS have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages....I hereby declare my intention to submit to those LAWS"
Claiming then that this official church statement is not about legal matters would be a ridiculously stupid statement . The ONLY purpose of the declaration is to agree to have the church comply with the legal system . There is no other reason for Official Declaration 1 in Mormon doctrine.
The second Manifesto was passed when it became evident to the US government that the church was still secretly engaging in polygamy . Your point that it isn't about the law because there were already laws is
nonsensical . The church itself was still secretly practicing polygamy and the government found out . That these marriages weren't truly legal didn't matter, they wanted the practice of cohabitation with multiple wives stopped . And so there was an effort to prevent the new Utah senator from taking office as punishment for the continuing secret practice. In response to the attempt to invalidate the Utah senator, the Mormon Prophet made the second declaration on polygamy know as the 2nd Manifesto. But even more, once again , the Second Manifesto specifically addresses following the law ( which is why I say your seem to not care about learning about your own faith where your knowledge is obviously lacking. It's in the very wording of the official stance)
"Inasmuch as there are numerous reports in circulation that plural marriages have been entered into, contrary to the official declaration of President Woodruff of September 24, 1890, commonly called the manifesto, which was issued by President Woodruff, and adopted by the Church general conference, October 6, 1890, which forbade any marriages violative of the law of the land, I, Joseph F. Smith, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, hereby affirm and declare that no such marriages have been solemnized with the sanction, consent, or knowledge of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
And I hereby announce that all such marriages are prohibited, and if any officer or member of the Church shall assume to solemnize or enter into any such marriage, he will be deemed in transgression against the Church, and will be liable to be dealt with according to the rules and regulations thereof and excommunicated therefrom.
Joseph F. Smith,
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.[5]"
In case the phrase " violative of the LAW of the land proves too difficult for you, I will help. It means that the declaration of the first Prophet was about following the LAW, and that this second declaration reinforces the doctrine that Mormons have officially agreed to follow the LAW regarding polygamy .
But feel free to continue to insist that the two official declarations on polygamy by the church have nothing to do with legal matters even though they specifically state so in the text of both, if you wish . As I said earlier , perhaps you just get some weird kick out of making yourself look foolish .
Last edited by wallflash; 09-19-2018 at 06:37 AM..
Man, I will give you this . You are stubborn, even when it makes you look foolish . All you have done here is repeat the info I gave you, so I guess at the least you are getting an education about your own former faith . But you seem strangely unwilling to take the time to do any further research into your lack of knowledge before continuing to make foolish remarks . Perhaps you get a kick out of looking silly, who knows . But let's recap.
You stated that the Mormon statements on polygamy have nothing to do with legal matters but spiritual ones and imply that they are then lying when they continue to do sealings to multiple spouses. I pointed out that the Manifestos of the church on polygamy are about legal matters and physical polygamy only , and thus does not conflict with doing these spiritual sealings. I have supported this with the following facts .
The US passed laws in 1890 outlawing polygamy, making it a felony punishable by prison, and made it easier to prove , as the government was allowed to legally presume polygamy if it found a Mormon man living with more than one adult woman . It also revoked the legal status of the Mormon church . 4 months after this law passed the church announced its Manifesto on polygamy ( known in Mormon theology as Official Declaration 1, since the topic here is the official statements of the church on polygamy ) , in which the head of the church writes, and I quote
"Inasmuch as LAWS have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages....I hereby declare my intention to submit to those LAWS"
Claiming then that this official church statement is not about legal matters would be a ridiculously stupid statement . The ONLY purpose of the declaration is to agree to have the church comply with the legal system . There is no other reason for Official Declaration 1 in Mormon doctrine.
The second Manifesto was passed when it became evident to the US government that the church was still secretly engaging in polygamy . Your point that it isn't about the law because there were already laws is
nonsensical . The church itself was still secretly practicing polygamy and the government found out . That these marriages weren't truly legal didn't matter, they wanted the practice of cohabitation with multiple wives stopped . And so there was an effort to prevent the new Utah senator from taking office as punishment for the continuing secret practice. In response to the attempt to invalidate the Utah senator, the Mormon Prophet made the second declaration on polygamy know as the 2nd Manifesto. But even more, once again , the Second Manifesto specifically addresses following the law ( which is why I say your seem to not care about learning about your own faith where your knowledge is obviously lacking. It's in the very wording of the official stance)
"Inasmuch as there are numerous reports in circulation that plural marriages have been entered into, contrary to the official declaration of President Woodruff of September 24, 1890, commonly called the manifesto, which was issued by President Woodruff, and adopted by the Church general conference, October 6, 1890, which forbade any marriages violative of the law of the land, I, Joseph F. Smith, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, hereby affirm and declare that no such marriages have been solemnized with the sanction, consent, or knowledge of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
And I hereby announce that all such marriages are prohibited, and if any officer or member of the Church shall assume to solemnize or enter into any such marriage, he will be deemed in transgression against the Church, and will be liable to be dealt with according to the rules and regulations thereof and excommunicated therefrom.
Joseph F. Smith,
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.[5]"
In case the phrase " violative of the LAW of the land proves too difficult for you, I will help. It means that the declaration of the first Prophet was about following the LAW, and that this second declaration reinforces the doctrine that Mormons have officially agreed to follow the LAW regarding polygamy .
But feel free to continue to insist that the two official declarations on polygamy by the church have nothing to do with legal matters even though they specifically state so in the text of both, if you wish . As I said earlier , perhaps you just get some weird kick out of making yourself look foolish .
Prior to the Manifestos, the church was performing polygamous spiritual sealings, not legal polygamous marriages. Big difference. After the Manifestos, the church has continued to perform polygamous spiritual sealings, not legal polygamous marriages, and continues to do so today. Your continued insistence that the Manifestos ended this practice is baffling.
Prior to the Manifestos, the church was performing polygamous spiritual sealings, not legal polygamous marriages. Big difference. After the Manifestos, the church has continued to perform polygamous spiritual sealings, not legal polygamous marriages, and continues to do so today. Your continued insistence that the Manifestos ended this practice is baffling.
Well,nice attempt at changing the discussion now that you realize you are wrong, but no cigar. I never said the church didn't perform sealings . Here is where our exchange started.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd
It’s important to note that the two Manifestos were a statement of a policy change, not a repudiation of the doctrine. And all of this begs the question - if the official position of the church is that it “has nothing whatsoever to do with polygamy,” why are Mormon men still being sealed to multiple women? That is an awful lot to do with polygamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash
Because the official position concerns itself with the law , which the church follows, and not with any religious rituals of the church that have no legal standing .
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd
The official position of the church is that they “have nothing whatsoever to do with polygamy.” That is pretty exhaustive in what it covers. It would make no sense for that to only mean something that is a legal impossibility.
So what we see here is that you attempted to claim the church was lying when it said it had nothing to do with polygamy. I then pointed out that their official position dealt only with the legal aspect of following US law and wasn't about internal church rituals .You then proceeded to claim my position made no sense , and have persisted to do so until the text of both manifestos with the words showing the declarations were about legal issues was quoted in my last post, at which point you now try to change the discussion slightly to pretend I was questioning them doing sealings to multiple spouses . That wasn't the topic, you know it, and it has now been shown that wasn't the topic.
But I will give you credit for effort . But still a fail on your part.
So back to my original point . The churches official stance on polygamy deals with the law, and complying with US law , which defined polygamy as merely cohabitation with multiple wives (which is where your point about them not being legal plural marriages fails. The law addressed Mormon men cohabiting with multiple women, regardless of the legality of the "marriage" in the eyes of the US government) . It has nothing to do with any internal religious rituals that the US government couldn't care less about .
I think he's trying to explain that temple sealings are the topic because to Mormons those are the real marriages.
Then he should have taken that route in his response to my first post ,instead of attempting to be smug about what the Manifestos were meant to address even though he seems to have no clue until educated by an outsider. He clearly argues with me about whether the Manifestos were about legal or spiritual issues right up until I give the actual texts of them and the reason and context they were delivered in, which state in the text that they address the legal issue of polygamy and the church complying with the laws of the US .
Then he should have taken that route in his response to my first post ,instead of attempting to be smug about what the Manifestos were meant to address even though he seems to have no clue until educated by an outsider. He clearly argues with me about whether the Manifestos were about legal or spiritual issues right up until I give the actual texts of them and the reason and context they were delivered in, which state in the text that they address the legal issue of polygamy and the church complying with the laws of the US .
He said:
Quote:
It’s very clear that the manifestos weren’t a prohibition on legal polygamous marriages, as no legal polygamous marriages were being performed at that time.
What is incorrect about this? Are you asserting that before the manifestos there were legal marriages to wives number 2-40? If so, do you have a source for that? That is not my understanding. My understanding is that all wives after the first were always Temple marriages only.
The Manifesto said that no more temple marriages would be done to effect 2-40 more wives, insofar as marriages with the intent of co-habitating with the subsequent wives, having sexual relations and children with them, etc. like what had been occurring. No one has disputed that.
But there is still the issue that the Church will seal a man to more than one woman at a time. Which by my reading of the Manifesto, is a violation of it.
However, it was carefully crafted to only deal with USG legal issues. In fact,
Quote:
The Manifesto declared President Woodruff’s intention to submit to the laws of the United States. It said nothing about the laws of other nations.
The type of polygamy you want to only focus on still went on to be approved by the church in other countries.
But the point that many are trying to make is the polygamy lives on in the Temple, that is the part that really matters to the Mormons. Those marriages are the ones that give them their blessings in the afterlife.
Here is where you claim that the Manifestos ended Mormon Polygamy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash
The church issued an original declaration against polygamy in order to maintain legal status as a church and help Utah gain statehood. Some members, including high church leaders, continued the practice . The second manifesto reinforced the ban on polygamy and pronounced punishments for engaging in or performing plural marriages.
The official church policy addresses the legal issues of polygamy , and prohibits Mormons from engaging in it , even on the sly in just the eyes of the church .
The are two possibilities for the Manifestos - they either address legal or spiritual issues.
If they address legal issues, they are empty, meaningless promises, as they promise to stop that which in fact the church wasn’t doing - performing legal polygamous marriages. It’s pretty easy to promise to stop that which you aren’t doing, but it is meaningless. Note that the Manifestos have nothing to do with cohabitation, only performing plural marriages in the temples.
For the manifestos to have any meaning, they need to be promises to stop that which the church was in fact doing - performing spiritual polygamous sealings. This hasn’t been done.
There is only one essential component to Mormon polygamy - that a man is sealed to multiple women. Everything else, cohabitation, sex, children, etc. are irrelevant to Mormon polygamy. The manifestos are silent on those points, and only address “plural marriages” performed in the temples. If “plural marriages” means legal plural marriages, then, as I stated previously, the manifestos are meaningless as they are simply promises to stop doing that which they weren’t doing. If the manifestos addressed the spiritual polygamous sealings that the church was in fact doing, then they are simply untrue, as polygamous sealings continue today.
So, where does that leave us with regards to the manifestos? Either empty meaningless promises, or untruths. And in neither case do they serve to prevent Mormons from engaging in the Mormon version of polygamy, in spite of your claim above.
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It has given me the opportunity to clear up some misconceptions, though. So in that regard, I'm still glad I started the thread.
) , in which the head of the church writes, and I quote