the wife of pilate experienced nightmares (quote, faith, Christianity, Apostle)

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by spiros7

the wife of pilate experienced nightmares because her moral compass knew that it was wrong to condemn the innocent.

...

Amazing that 2,000 years later you know what was in the mind of a person you never met.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by spiros7

//www.city-data.com/forum/relig...l#post53414646

...and just what does that have to do with the question I sked you, which was....


Do you have any verifiable evidence that we can trust the Bible with regard to truth?

[spiros7]

Originally Posted by Rafius

So the Bible says. So...do you have any verifiable evidence that we can trust the Bible with regard to truth?

jesus was not only real, but there several ancient sources that wrote about him.


are you asking me to try to persuade you to believe?

i am convinced so why should i convice others?

do you want me not to believe?

i believe. so why do i need to proof my belief to you?
who is converting you?

[spiros7]

Originally Posted by Rafius

...and just what does that have to do with the question I sked you, which was....


Do you have any verifiable evidence that we can trust the Bible with regard to truth?

what truth? objective truth or philosophical truth that inquires people to question existence and purpose

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by spiros7

jesus was not only real, but there several ancient sources that wrote about him.


are you asking me to try to persuade you to believe?

i am convinced so why should i convice others?

do you want me not to believe?

i believe. so why do i need to proof my belief to you?
who is converting you?

Well what is your purpose here as you drown the sub-forum in your preaching?

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by spiros7

what truth? objective truth or philosophical truth that inquires people to question existence and purpose

Stop trying to be clever and evasive. You know perfectly well what he was asking.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by spiros7

jesus was not only real,

Not the one you want to have existed...the one depicted in the Bible. There is absolutely no evidence for that one at all, not a scrap.

but there several ancient sources that wrote about him.

Allegedly Josephus and Tacitus. Neither hold much weight as verifiable evidence for the Christian man-god. Josephus has likely been tampered with and Tacitus is generally accepted as repeating what he had heard from Christians circulating at the time. Who else do you have?

i believe. so why do i need to proof my belief to you?

You don't unless you start doing things like you did above. You have claimed that Jesus was real. Now you need to support your claim with verifiable evidence.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by spiros7

jesus was not only real, but there several ancient sources that wrote about him.


are you asking me to try to persuade you to believe?

i am convinced so why should i convice others?

do you want me not to believe?

i believe. so why do i need to proof my belief to you?
who is converting you?

Why are you here? If you just want to talk about Jesus without any questions, move to Christianity. All the time you are here, you are going to get called on claims as it is a free discussion Forum (given that it has to relate to religion).

We already know that converting the other person is unlikely. We also suspect that the discussions are as much for the thousands looking in as for the protagonists having the discussion. If you are in a discussion and proffering claims, for example, Jesus lived and contemporary sources wrote about it, you should back that up if questioned. If you decline to answer, you have dented your own credibility and that of your religion.

We don't mind at all if you do but it's your call. We certainly don't have to justify our calling you on this or that claim, nor do we even need to justify pointing out evasions, like the one you posted here.

So the claim I'm addressing is Jesus lived and contemporaries wrote about him.

There are some reasons to doubt that Jesus ever lived. I am fairly sure that he did, for myself. I am also very sure that the Jesus described in the Gospels is not much like the actual Jesus. I could be wrong. Contemporaries generally seem to be writing about later Christians and their claims rather than Jesus, and often near a hundred years after the events.

Tacitus is the only one I give much credit to,and even then, he seems to be reacting to what the Christians claim about Jesus. Josephus of course is debated. SOME at least of the Flavian Testament is surely spurius, and I rather think all of it is. The 'James' reference is also debatable, but I'm willing to give that some credence. Suetonius simply writes about Christians in one place and Jews in another, and it is not sure that this 'Chrestus' even refers to Gospel Jesus (1).

So the 'contemporary support' doesn't seem to be as strong as you would like to think.

Originally Posted by spiros7

what truth? objective truth or philosophical truth that inquires people to question existence and purpose

What actually happened, of course. Philosophical debates, like whether it is ok to live according to a book of mythology, can be left to later.

(1) There was a very interesting post here some time ago by someone arguing that 'Chreshtus' was an Alexandrine Jew and posted a picture of a Jar with the name of Chreshtus on (Chrestus is apparently a name used by others -Mean "Good") and, if this Chreshtus was stirring up the Jews in Rome, he could have been stirring up trouble in Jerusalem, too. This (supposing that Acts is, if not trustworthy, written by someone who could read the news) may perhaps give the background to Paul, in the middle of a riot being grabbed on suspicion of being "That Egyptian" whose same for some reason, is never mentioned. Probably for the same reason as Theudas (referred to in Gamaliel's speech' is describes as claiming to be 'Somebody', and we can guess why. It was another failed messianic effort.

Originally Posted by Rafius

Not the one you want to have existed...the one depicted in the Bible. There is absolutely no evidence for that one at all, not a scrap.


Allegedly Josephus and Tacitus. Neither hold much weight as verifiable evidence for the Christian man-god. Josephus has likely been tampered with and Tacitus is generally accepted as repeating what he had heard from Christians circulating at the time. Who else do you have?


You don't unless you start doing things like you did above. You have claimed that Jesus was real. Now you need to support your claim with verifiable evidence.

Notice a pattern? parachute into the board, toss out a lot of faith -claims, start wriggling and, when asked to back up their claims, say that the don't need to prove anything.

How long would you estimate before the flounce?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Originally Posted by spiros7

jesus was not only real, but there several ancient sources that wrote about him.

do you want me not to believe?

i believe. so why do i need to proof my belief to you?
who is converting you?

There were a good many more than "several" ancient sources that wrote about Jesus. But not until years after he was dead.

1 and 2 Clement
Shepherd of Hermas
Didache
Epistle of Barnabas
Apocalypse of Peter
Third Epistle to the Corinthians
Gospel of Thomas
Oxyrhynchus Gospels
Egerton Gospel
Fayyum Fragment
Dialogue of the Saviour
The Gospel of the Ebionites ("GE") – 7 quotations by Epiphanius.
The Gospel of the Hebrews ("GH") – 1 quotation ascribed to Cyril of Jerusalem, plus GH 2–7 quotations by Clement, Origen, and Jerome.
The Gospel of the Nazarenes
Gospel of the Ebionites
Gospel of the Hebrews
Gospel of the Nazoraeans
Secret Gospel of Mark
Gospel of Marcion
Gospel of Judas
Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Marcion (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Mani (3rd century)
Gospel of Apelles (mid-late 2nd century)
Gospel of Bardesanes (late 2nd - early 3rd century)
Gospel of Basilides (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Peter
Gospel of Nicodemus (also called the "Acts of Pilate")
Pseudo-Cyril of Jerusalem, On the Life and the Passion of Christ
Gospel of Bartholomew
Questions of Bartholomew
Resurrection of Jesus
Apocryphon of James (also called the "Secret Book of James")
Book of Thomas the Contender
Dialogue of the Saviour
Gospel of Judas (also called the "Gospel of Judas Iscariot")
Gospel of Mary (also called the "Gospel of Mary Magdalene")
Gospel of Philip
Greek Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians)
The Sophia of Jesus Christ
Coptic Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Apocalypse of Paul)
Gospel of Truth
Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Apocalypse of Peter)
Pistis Sophia
Second Treatise of the Great Seth
Apocryphon of John (also called the "Secret Gospel of John")
Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Greek Gospel of the Egyptians)
Trimorphic Protennoia
Acts of Andrew
Acts of Barnabas
Acts of John
Acts of the Martyrs
Acts of Paul
Acts of Paul and Thecla
Acts of Peter
Acts of Peter and Andrew
Acts of Peter and Paul
Acts of Peter and the Twelve
Acts of Philip
Acts of Pilate
Acts of Thomas
Acts of Timothy
Acts of Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca
Epistle of Barnabas
Epistles of Clement
Epistle of the Corinthians to Paul
Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
Epistle to Diognetus
Epistle to the Laodiceans (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Epistle to Seneca the Younger (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Third Epistle to the Corinthians - accepted in the past by some in the Armenian Orthodox church.
Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Coptic Apocalypse of Paul)
Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter)
Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius
Apocalypse of Thomas (also called the Revelation of Thomas)
Apocalypse of Stephen (also called the Revelation of Stephen)
First Apocalypse of James (also called the First Revelation of James)
Second Apocalypse of James (also called the Second Revelation of James)
The Shepherd of Hermas
The Descent of Mary
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonian
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
James
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
Jude
Revelation

Originally Posted by spiros7

are you asking me to try to persuade you to believe?

No. Jesus is asking you to.

Mark 16:15
“And He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.'”

Of course, as I have been pointing out, it is the author of Gospel Mark that wrote those words. The author of Gospel Mark never met Jesus. How do I know that? Because there is an ancient source that says so.

Papias, writing in the the second century, and citing an individual he calls John the Elder (Presbyter), someone he knew personally, wrote:

“And the presbyter said this. Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord’s sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements.”

http://crossexamined.org/wrote-gospel-mark/

Jesus himself wrote NOTHING. Should that matter? Not so long as you are satisfied with making the series of unquestioned assumptions necessary to sustain your lifetime of very specific indoctrination.

No one is doubting that you genuinely believe. Muslims genuinely believe. Hindus genuinely believe. And they believe very different things. Why? Because they were born into Islam, or Hinduism, and those are the beliefs they were very specifically indoctrinated into as children. Just as you have been indoctrinated into Christian belief. Your belief is based on a carefully crafted series of assumption which amount to little more than blind faith. Which is itself little more than a declaration of, "I believe it and that settles it. Don't bother trying to confuse me with the facts." Because it is clear that your beliefs are based on a very narrow and incomplete consideration of the very narrow lifetime of indoctrination that you have undergone. You have only been exposed to a very narrow argument. An argument with a built in foregone conclusion.

Here is the question. Does it matter at all if your beliefs are not true... if you hold on to them until the day you die? Just as Muslims and Hindus do?

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by Rafius

Not the one you want to have existed...the one depicted in the Bible. There is absolutely no evidence for that one at all, not a scrap.


Allegedly Josephus and Tacitus. Neither hold much weight as verifiable evidence for the Christian man-god. Josephus has likely been tampered with and Tacitus is generally accepted as repeating what he had heard from Christians circulating at the time. Who else do you have?


You don't unless you start doing things like you did above. You have claimed that Jesus was real. Now you need to support your claim with verifiable evidence.

re....How long would you estimate before the flounce?

Incidentally, you'll probably recall the long debate with Pneuma about Tacitus. One thing that came out was that Procurator and Prefect can be held by the same Roman at the same time, depending on whether they are acting a fiscal official or military. Thus Pilate was called 'prefect' in the inscription and is referring to him military role. So the arguments that the Tacitus passage on Jesus is a forgery because he calls him Procurator doesn't follow. But it does suggest that Tacitus is not (as Pneuma also suggested) looking up reliable records - he's just responding to what the Christians were saying - that Jesus was crucified by the Roman governor, and since they were all 'Procurators' later on, Tacitus though that Pilate was, too.

Of course, at times he might have been Procurator. But the inscription describing him as such hasn't been found yet, so that claim awaits substantiation - like the foundations of 100 1st c houses in Nazareth archaeology needing to turn up before we can suppose there was a synagogue there. Right now, that it even existed other than as a farm or two is not sure.