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So why don't you start with an example and say that,
"You as an Atheist, believe that God does not exist, and you assert this belief without any evidence.
And you have a firm belief that God does not exist, and for this firm belief, there is no proof."
fair enough?
Most atheists do not believe in any of the God claims. Most do not claim that a God does not exist. This has been mentioned to you before. One does not need evidence to not believe an unproven claim.
As to your original post, as far as I am concerned if you say you believe in your God based on faith, that is the end of any discussion, you don't need to prove and I don't need to believe. It's the believers who claim that they know for a fact that not only does a god exist but it is their God. They need to provide evidence to back that positive claim.
I have faith that my wife has been faithful to me and that my dogs loved me. I have trust in science, in my car and the legal system. I have no evidence of either a God existing or that he does not exist. I do have an abundance of evidence of theists misrepresenting the view of atheists.
So why don't you start with an example and say that,
"You as an Atheist, believe that God does not exist, and you assert this belief without any evidence.
And you have a firm belief that God does not exist, and for this firm belief, there is no proof."
fair enough?
I have to concede the point to you GoC ... I did disagree with you until fish answered me with the exact same thing you did.
Fish basically admitted
"I have no idea what I am talking about but I am believing what I want to anyway."
its exactly your stance. the atheist said exactly the same thing you did.
If someone...say a sweet soft spoken lady that has never talked about fire and brimstone,
just a loving God,
(and this has happened)...healed a lot of people...and even brought someone back in a day, dying in a coma on machines keeping them alive for days with no hope...would people suddenly say ,"There IS a God."
I don't think so.
They might say ...she is a faith healer and leave it at that...they might say she
did a healing just before the person would have come out of the coma anyway...
What proof could someone do, for Pete's sake.
I mean really.
It's like NDE folks that have amazing 'trips', but just because they didn't happen to tell them the sneaker planted on the 3rd floor ledge was red...well, then they didn't exp what they think they did.
Huh?
again, you are stuck with demanding "proof" - Didn't you JUST tell me to say.
"a firm belief in something for which there is no proof"
So I am refraining from providing proof as per your suggestion. However, when I ask you to apply the same logic on Atheism, you quickly turn around and say, the burden of proof is on me? Didn't we just agree that there is no proof?
If you have not seen the evidence of your liking, then you are more than welcome NOT to believe in any God; and I have absolute no problem with it.
However, IMO absence of evidence is not always the evidence of absence. As I gave the example of Oxygen. 1000 years ago, there was no evidence that Oxygen exists. It doesn't mean that Oxygen didn't exist then.
You don't believe in the existence of God, that's your choice. Doesn't bother me one bit.
So you are not a firm Atheist?
That's your personal opinion that you are more than entitled to voice.
why lack of belief in god a default?
IMO, the default is, and it should be, "we don't know the answer whether God exists or not.
The middle of +1 and -1 is 0, yet you are telling me it's -1.
Now you are confusing yourself.
It looks like, on one hand you are an Atheist who does not believe in the existence of God but you conveniently become an agnostic when it suits your narrative.
We have to start all over again.
Please tell us if you are an Atheist or agnostic?
I can confidently say that I am a believer. Hopefully, you will have a straight forward answer as well, that you can confidently tell us here.
Most atheists are also agnostic. Saying that you cannot be agnostic and atheists is like saying you cannot be both tall and left handed. Please take the time and effort to learn what atheists, agnostic, gnostic and theists means. You could be an agnostic theists or a gnostic atheist 9r a tall atheist.
again, you are stuck with demanding "proof" - Didn't you JUST tell me to say.
"a firm belief in something for which there is no proof"
So I am refraining from providing proof as per your suggestion. However, when I ask you to apply the same logic on Atheism, you quickly turn around and say, the burden of proof is on me? Didn't we just agree that there is no proof?
If you have not seen the evidence of your liking, then you are more than welcome NOT to believe in any God; and I have absolute no problem with it.
However, IMO absence of evidence is not always the evidence of absence. As I gave the example of Oxygen. 1000 years ago, there was no evidence that Oxygen exists. It doesn't mean that Oxygen didn't exist then.
You don't believe in the existence of God, that's your choice. Doesn't bother me one bit.
So you are not a firm Atheist?
That's your personal opinion that you are more than entitled to voice.
why lack of belief in god a default?
IMO, the default is, and it should be, "we don't know the answer whether God exists or not.
The middle of +1 and -1 is 0, yet you are telling me it's -1.
Now you are confusing yourself.
It looks like, on one hand you are an Atheist who does not believe in the existence of God but you conveniently become an agnostic when it suits your narrative.
We have to start all over again.
Please tell us if you are an Atheist or agnostic?
I can confidently say that I am a believer. Hopefully, you will have a straight forward answer as well, that you can confidently tell us here.
again, i have to agree GoC. I mean, I can't believe how he just showed us what you were talking about.
some atheist are running on blind faith that ignoring everything is rational in supporting a belief.
If someone...say a sweet soft spoken lady that has never talked about fire and brimstone,
just a loving God,
(and this has happened)...healed a lot of people...and even brought someone back in a day, dying in a coma on machines keeping them alive for days with no hope...would people suddenly say ,"There IS a God."
I don't think so.
They might say ...she is a faith healer and leave it at that...they might say she
did a healing just before the person would have come out of the coma anyway...
What proof could someone do, for Pete's sake.
I mean really.
It's like NDE folks that have amazing 'trips', but just because they didn't happen to tell them the sneaker planted on the 3rd floor ledge was red...well, then they didn't exp what they think they did.
Huh?
You keep it hepp.
there is something, the data suggest that. I don't do "god" as in "your father", but its certainly not nothing more complex. And if we are classifyied as life and we are in a more complex system how should we describe it?
Son't tell me about something that maybe happened 2,000+ years ago. Show me indisputable miracles NOW.
Why must God be as our primitive ancient ancestors believed Him to be? We know so much more today than they did.
Quote:
It seems that what you are suggesting in the second half of your posts is that there is a deistic god, rather than a theistic god.
Actually, I am seeking the minimal qualities that you would credit as evidence of God. You see, my biggest issue is even imagining how the processes and outcomes of a Big Bang could ever produce a consciousness that can contemplate the outcomes and speculate about them and try to understand them. What in the Standard Model could possibly contain the seeds of such a phenomenon?
Why must God be as our primitive ancient ancestors believed Him to be? We know so much more today than they did. Actually, I am seeking the minimal qualities that you would credit as evidence of God. You see, my biggest issue is even imagining how the processes and outcomes of a Big Bang could ever produce a consciousness that can contemplate the outcomes and speculate about them and try to understand them. What in the Standard Model could possibly contain the seeds of such a phenomenon?
The link into the standard is as follows:
as the number of interactions increase the ability to process information in meaningful becomes possible.
also, quantum computing. The superposition of information means that the particles can store and process far more information than without it. In effect, the particles in the universe cna process every possible outcome very quickly.
basically, the universe dreamed you mustic. lol, like that?
To believe in a god, yes I would require proof, or at least a substantial amount of evidence.
You are correct, I have not encountered any evidence for the existence of god that I think is creditable.
That doesn’t mean I dismiss everything out of hand, simply that
so far all I have seen are unsupported stories, theoretical frameworks with no supporting evidence,
or items that have many alternate explanations.
Not aimed at one person...
If someone really wanted to see if there was a God, he would have to do the work, make the effort,
put in the time, research, listen, 'seek' and finally sit in an exquisite stillness
that is almost unimaginable for a length of time..to have a direct, up-close and personal, intimate experience.
If a person wants proof...then, be open, 'like a child'...put in the time with sincerity of heart.
Being a professional doubter, skeptic and clever debater for decades won't get you any closer to
a direct exp ...and that is what is needed; not some blind faith or belief in a Bible because you felt
some inspiration from time to time from your unhappy daily life on a few Sundays.
Upliftment reading some verses in a book is no proof...it is sweet, mind you, darling, in fact.
But, even those that say there is a God have not even really been in His Divine Presence.
Anyone can tell if someone has...it's like someone that comes out of a Rose Garden;
they have the scent all over them.
it s not a theist god phet. You claim to be science trained so start acting like it.
we know there is no theist god, so what is there?
No, we don't KNOW that, either.
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