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I will simplify it: is it true, or is it not true, that "whatsoever we ask in Jesus' name, He will do" ? John 14:13
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
I patiently waited but no one answered my question above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest
You might have to research it for your self.
No need for that. Others have done quite a bit of research already, including controlled studies. Turns out that prayer works about as often as would be expected by pure chance (i.e., if the results were determined by flipping a coin, or if there was no prayer at all). So the answer to kayanne's question appears to be "not true."
No need for that. Others have done quite a bit of research already, including controlled studies. Turns out that prayer works about as often as would be expected by pure chance (i.e., if the results were determined by flipping a coin, or if there was no prayer at all). So the answer to kayanne's question appears to be "not true."
Yes that would "appear" to be the case. And I'm guessing that Christians here who do believe it is true are avoiding discussing the topic with me because they think I'm trying to back then into a corner or something. I'm truly not.
I'm genuinely trying to understand the mindset I held for so long, in which something that "appears" to be untrue somehow mysteriously IS true. As a former fundamentalist/literalist, once a couple of foundational "Jenga pieces" were pulled out (including these kind of prayer promise verses), my entire faith eventually toppled. And ever since that traumatic loss of my faith, I've been trying to figure out
1) how in the world I ever believed things that, even back then didn't make any sense to the logical part of my brain, and
2) if there is any way I could ever again be comfortable in a Christian church (as I do miss many aspects of it) when I cannot believe the things its guidebook says.
So it really is more of a question about how do Christians (particularly ones who say the Bible is inerrant) share their faith with people who are stuck on things like this.
Last edited by kayanne; 05-03-2019 at 08:16 AM..
Reason: I'm a stickler for perfect punctuation!
Yes that would "appear" to be the case. And I'm guessing that Christians here who do believe it is true are avoiding discussing the topic with me because they think I'm trying to back then into a corner or something. I'm truly not.
I'm genuinely trying to understand the mindset I held for so long, in which something that "appears" to be untrue somehow mysteriously IS true. As a former fundamentalist/literalist, once a couple of foundational "Jenga pieces" were pulled out (including these kind of prayer promise verses), my entire faith eventually toppled. And ever since that traumatic loss of my faith, I've been trying to figure out
1) how in the world I ever believed things that, even back then didn't make any sense to the logical part of my brain, and
2) if there is any way I could ever again be comfortable in a Christian church (as I do miss many aspects of it) when I cannot believe the things its guidebook says.
So it really is more of a question about how do Christians (particularly ones who say the Bible is inerrant) share their faith with people who are stuck on things like this.
It is a good question. Unfortunately, a look at the list of those who posted in this thread shows that only one fundamentalist responded(Matthew 4:4), and his response was that by praying for the return of Christ, they are by default praying for the end of world hunger. Kind of a clever dodge, but still doesn't answer the question that the OP and you were trying to get at.
Yes that would "appear" to be the case. And I'm guessing that Christians here who do believe it is true are avoiding discussing the topic with me because they think I'm trying to back then into a corner or something. I'm truly not.
I'm genuinely trying to understand the mindset I held for so long, in which something that "appears" to be untrue somehow mysteriously IS true. As a former fundamentalist/literalist, once a couple of foundational "Jenga pieces" were pulled out (including these kind of prayer promise verses), my entire faith eventually toppled. And ever since that traumatic loss of my faith, I've been trying to figure out
1) how in the world I ever believed things that, even back then didn't make any sense to the logical part of my brain, and
2) if there is any way I could ever again be comfortable in a Christian church (as I do miss many aspects of it) when I cannot believe the things its guidebook says.
So it really is more of a question about how do Christians (particularly ones who say the Bible is inerrant) share their faith with people who are stuck on things like this.
[Disclaimer: I'm probably not the one you want to be talking to, since my path is pretty much the same as yours, even if never fundamentalist. But my Jenga pieces toppled in much the same way. In any event, I will continue the discussion while we wait for others to show up....]
Yes, the use of "appears to be" was intentional. It's the same qualifier I would use when presenting scientific data where the results are equivocal at best. But let's put it this way... if prayer was being submitted for consideration as a new interventional treatment in humans (or dogs or horses, for that matter), we would not be able to approve it, based on what we currently know about its effectiveness. It has not been shown to be any better than placebos (which, to be sure, are useful in some conditions, but the church.... err, drug company... should not be charging money and/or making promises about their effectiveness!).
As for your "how in the world" questions, for me it all comes down to faith.... and the failings thereof. I have stopped referring to "loss of faith," which implies that this is something you are supposed to have, and should go looking for if it's gone. There is no other part of life where we tell ourselves that it's OK (more than OK... desirable and admirable) to base our important decisions on nothing more than conjecture and myth and hope. Faith is a horribly inefficient, ineffective way to separate truth from fiction (i.e., to deal with reality).
There is a very good reason those things didn't make sense to you.
I patiently waited but no one answered my question above.
You must remember the NT is a collection of texts with different theological and political views. Some are independent of the others, while some 'correct' theological or political 'errors' in earlier works.
If you want an answer to this, then it may be an idea to ask in the Christian section, but because of the above, you may get several different answers.
As an atheist, my advice would be to be nice to your neighbors and the world your children will inherit; and if you need, pray to whatever higher power you believe in. Question what you read in books before you rely on them.
I patiently waited but no one answered my question above.
I know it bothers you, et al, that the vast majority of the world is religious (and religion is growing in saturation of the world population) and they just simply believe the tenets of their respective theologies through faith.
My suggestion is: Y'all need to get a hold of yourselves and learn to cope. Or you will continue to live your lives all bolloxed-up with the obvious angst you carry over the fact that God-Belief and Religion dominate this world....has for thousands of years, does now, and probably will for a long time to come.
Sorry to have to clue you into to the bitter reality of "The Way of the World"...but that's just how it is, and how it's gonna be. And you, et al, are powerless to do anything about it. You like "facts"? Get hip to that one!
I know it bothers you, et al, that the vast majority of the world is religious (and religion is growing in saturation of the world population) and they just simply believe the tenets of their respective theologies through faith.
My suggestion is: Y'all need to get a hold of yourselves and learn to cope. Or you will continue to live your lives all bolloxed-up with the obvious angst you carry over the fact that God-Belief and Religion dominate this world....has for thousands of years, does now, and probably will for a long time to come.
Sorry to have to clue you into to the bitter reality of "The Way of the World"...but that's just how it is, and how it's gonna be. And you, et al, are powerless to do anything about it. You like "facts"? Get hip to that one!
You certainly do like to paint over the wide variations in the religious world which, in reality, tend to cancel each other out.
Let's start with Buddhism. It's not a god-based religion.
Then we can go to Hinduism. How exactly do you meld a belief in one god with a belief in dozens of gods.
Sikhism? Judaism? These are in harmony with the christian god? I think not.
And even Islam. Same god...I guess. But do you wrap your belief around Islam?
And then there are the splinter religions. I'm sure you're totally supportive of the Jehovah Witnesses. You sit down and worship with Mormons often, do you?
So get hip and disabuse yourself of the "god belief". It's too wildly diverse to be real.
I know it bothers you, et al, that the vast majority of the world is religious (and religion is growing in saturation of the world population) and they just simply believe the tenets of their respective theologies through faith.
My suggestion is: Y'all need to get a hold of yourselves and learn to cope. Or you will continue to live your lives all bolloxed-up with the obvious angst you carry over the fact that God-Belief and Religion dominate this world....has for thousands of years, does now, and probably will for a long time to come.
Sorry to have to clue you into to the bitter reality of "The Way of the World"...but that's just how it is, and how it's gonna be. And you, et al, are powerless to do anything about it. You like "facts"? Get hip to that one!
Wow, is this really the best way you know how to share your beliefs? I never said I was bothered that the vast majority of the world is religious. I said nothing like that at all. I posted here with sincere questions, and you respond to me with hatred.
Really??? And I would want to adopt your belief system because......?????
Wow, is this really the best way you know how to share your beliefs? I never said I was bothered that the vast majority of the world is religious. I said nothing like that at all. I posted here with sincere questions, and you respond to me with hatred.
Really??? And I would want to adopt your belief system because......?????
Goldie is a deist who either does not understand logic, or likes posts to get responses.
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